The Shocking Truth About Gum Disease: What Your Dentist Isn’t Telling You! | Dr. Victoria Sampson

Dr. Brighten: [00:00:00] There was a mention of male infertility as well. What have the 

Dr. Sampson: studies shown us about how strong swimmers? Men with periodontal disease are 2. 85 times more likely to have erectile dysfunction. Ooh. Nearly 90 percent of diseases are to do with the microbiome, with an imbalance of bacteria. This is a terrible bacteria.

You don't want this in your mouth. 

Dr. Brighten: I'm like, I'm getting tested immediately. So how would somebody know, like, potentially my oral microbiome is bad? 

Narrator 2: Dr. Victoria Sampson 

Narrator 1: isn't just redefining dentistry. She's revolutionizing it. 

Narrator 2: Known globally for her pioneering work in salivary diagnostics and oral microbiome testing.

Narrator 1: She's the first dentist to link gum disease with severe COVID complications and has published numerous groundbreaking papers. 

Narrator 2: A Forbes 30 under 30 honoree and advisor to the European Space Agency and NASA. Dr. Sampson is on a mission to transform oral health into a gateway for whole body wellness. 

Dr. Brighten: Now, if somebody has gum disease.

You should [00:01:00] definitely be aware of that. Why do we want to be careful who we kiss? 

Dr. Sampson: Some research has shown that if you kiss more than then your oral microbiomes will start to become 

Dr. Brighten: Welcome back to the Dr. Brighton Show. I'm your host, Dr. Jolene Brighton. I'm board certified in naturopathic endocrinology, a nutrition scientist, a certified sex counselor, and a certified menopause specialist.

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Dr. Victoria Sampson, welcome to the show. Hello, thank you so much for having me. It's great to be here. It is so great to see you again. Last time was in London, I think two years ago, maybe a year and a half ago. We were both speaking at the Health Optimization Summit, and I'm so glad that I did because I got to meet you and some other really incredible people.

It was so much fun. 

Dr. Sampson: It was great to meet you too, and I'm so happy to be on this podcast now. 

Dr. Brighten: I know. I wish we were doing this in person. I was trying to talk to my team of like, Can't we just budget in a trip to London? Because we need to talk to Victoria. I have [00:03:00] very important questions to ask her all about oral health.

Uh, so for people listening, if you skipped through the intro, she is a dentist, but a very very Very important dentist because she is really shaping the future of dentistry all together and we're gonna be talking all about mouth health today. As soon as I went to say that my brain was like you're gonna mess that up.

Sure enough. Okay, okay, but the very first thing I want to ask you is like why do we want to be careful who we kiss? 

Dr. Sampson: Um, so we all have oral microbiomes. Um, we, we have many different microbiomes in our body and one of them is in our mouth. And it's actually the second most diverse and largest microbiome after the gut.

Um, so it's got 700 different bacteria. And when you think about kissing, um, there's a lot of exchange of saliva in there, um, and so essentially you're, you're exchanging bacteria with your partner or whoever it is. Um, some research has shown [00:04:00] that if you kiss more than 11 times, then your oral microbiomes will start to become quite similar.

Um, and they also did a study where one of the couple had, uh, probiotics in their mouth. And then they kissed the other person to see whether or not they could transfer those probiotics. And lo and behold, they did. Um, so it's not to say, you know, everyone should check their, you know, oral microbiome before they go ahead and kiss someone.

Um, but there definitely is quite a lot of, um, saliva exchange in there. And I may or may not have tested my, my, uh, boyfriend's oral microbiome as well. 

Dr. Brighten: I love that. I feel like this is something that, like, Us nerds would only do. It's also something, too, that, you know, if somebody has gum disease, you should definitely be aware of that.

But, uh, you know, as I bring that up, how would somebody know if they're gonna kiss someone? How would they know if they have gum disease? And does that person having gum disease put you at risk? 

Dr. Sampson: So the way that you'd know if you or someone else has gum [00:05:00] disease, um, sometimes it can be the smell. Um, there's a very particular smell.

Um, it's difficult to explain it, but it's, it's slightly pungent. Um, and so there's a bit of a smell. It might be that your gums bleed when you brush your teeth. Um, that's kind of the early stages. So gum disease is really like a spectrum and on the very very early stages It starts as bleeding gums Maybe your gums are a bit sore and then that progresses if you don't sort it out at that point it then becomes What we call pocketing so that's where the gums around the teeth They are not tight like a turtleneck, they become a bit loose, bacteria can get stuck in there, that's where the smells start to come.

Um, and as that progresses and progresses, your teeth will start to get wobbly, and then at the really, really end of it, it's that your teeth are falling out. So, um, hopefully you don't get to the teeth falling out part before you realize you have gum disease. You might get it when your gums are bleeding a little bit.

Dr. Brighten: So, is there any risk if you were to kiss somebody who has gum disease? Let's say they have severe gum disease, is [00:06:00] there any risk to you? 

Dr. Sampson: Um, the research says no, because like I said, it needs to be more than kind of 11 times, it needs to be, you know, you really need to be passionately French kissing that person.

Um, but with that being said, I, I do think anecdotally, I have found that a lot of couples, if one has gum disease, the other one most likely does as well. Um, and so I would be a little bit wary, particularly if you've got very severe gum disease, because essentially you've got high levels of really bad bacteria and that's going to be transferred to another person.

And what you're hoping is that that person who's receiving the bad bacteria, um, has a good immune response and is not going to develop gum disease, but you never know. 

Dr. Brighten: Mm hmm. Now for everybody listening, we're gonna get into what to do about this, but before we do I have another question, which is Why is it that we're so into kissing some people but then like kind of repelled by other people?

Dr. Sampson: So they say that kissing there's kind [00:07:00] of two purposes to it. So one is arousal. It's you know, it's that intimacy um, and That we probably all know. Um, but the other is actually from a subconscious perspective. We actually think that we, um, when we're kissing, we're exchanging a lot of saliva, a lot of proteins, and actually we're testing the other patient, the other person, sorry, patient.

That's how dentist I am. Sorry, the other person, the other person's, um, immune system and how strong their immunity is. So subconsciously, we might actually be checking, um, their, uh, immunoglobulins, how they are, and that might dictate whether or not we like that person or we don't, because we, we are attracted to people who have similar immunity to us or better immunity.

Um, and then the other thing is just, there is an exchange of, um, cortisol. So you're reducing your cortisol when you kiss. And that's why a lot of people feel less stressed after they've kissed someone. 

Dr. Brighten: Mm [00:08:00] hmm. That's interesting the less stress after we kiss. The other thing I find fascinating about this is that we know based on scent, there's been lots of studies about how we sense potential mates based on their odor.

And it feels like there's like these little checkpoints that we're going through, right? First it's like we smell you. Then we taste you and then we understand like, are you, are you somebody that we actually maybe, and let me just say, like, not everybody wants to have a baby, but your biology wants you to have a baby.

And it's set up that way. Um, but it's just interesting to be like, there's these like little pit stops along the way of like checking in, like, is this really the person for me? Um, and I know, as I say, like, and you taste them, people might cringe, but when we think about like. How do infants explore the world when they're on their hands and knees and crawling around?

A lot of that is tasting, and that is one way that we can perceive our [00:09:00] environment. 

Dr. Sampson: No, a hundred percent, and also a lot of us have different, um, taste proprioceptions. Like, um, some people are actually called super tasters, so they can taste, um, I think it's up to five more. tastes than the average person can.

Um, and so it, it's kind of like, you know, uh, you think of people's eyes like, can you see different colours in different people's eyes? Is my blue the same colour as your blue? It's the same as like, is sweet the same as what sweet is to you? 

Dr. Brighten: Yeah, that's so interesting. I want to go back though because you said oral microbiome and I'm not sure everybody knows what that is.

So can you define what the oral microbiome is for us? 

Dr. Sampson: Yeah, so um, we've got lots of different microbiomes. Essentially a microbiome is a collection of bacteria, viruses, It's got, it's got everything in it. It's a, all sorts. Um, and the oral microbiome is what your mouth is made out of. Um, [00:10:00] 700 bacteria, 2 billion bacteria overall.

Um, and there's lots and lots of different environments within the same mouth. So if you think about the bacteria that would want to grow under the tongue versus in between the teeth or um, at the back of the throat, they're very different environments and so different bacteria will be allowed to grow.

Um, and what is very exciting and special about the microbiome is what we're starting to understand is that nearly 90 percent of diseases are to do with the microbiome, with an imbalance of bacteria. And it's exactly the same with the oral microbiome, that specific bacteria are causing your diseases like gum disease or decay, but also contributing to general disease as well.

Dr. Brighten: Mm hmm. I want to talk more specifics about the general diseases. And what, what we're seeing come out of the research, however, is I think a big question people might have is, how would I even know if I have an issue with my oral microbiome? So [00:11:00] there's the extreme case that you talked about, which was gum disease.

Like, the pocketing, uh, eating away at the bone, your teeth are falling out. But most people are not at that extreme that are listening to this. So how would somebody know, like, potentially my oral microbiome is off? So I think the, the classic, 

Dr. Sampson: Maybe red flags that you should be looking out for could be funny tastes strange stains on your teeth that you can't get rid of A high amount of decay and you don't understand why and you don't eat sugar or something gum disease Bad breath random ulcers basically things that are a bit kind of bothering you and I think that we Often don't really think of our mouths as a problematic area, you know, if your, um, eye started bleeding or if you had an infection of your ear, you would run to the doctor, but when your gums bleed [00:12:00] or, you know, you have a funny taste, which could be pus, you don't think about it very much.

But those are all, um, red flags and symptoms of some sort of imbalance in your microbiome. 

Dr. Brighten: And there's a lot of myths, I think, out there. I think there's, like, two big problems, and I'd be curious if you agree. One is, in the United States, we've got health insurance, we've got dental insurance, and dental insurance is, like, the bonus.

It's extra. It's, like, it's not part of you. It's so bizarre. Eye and dental. It's, like, they're your bot. I don't understand this. Um, the other thing is, there's just a lot of myths out there about what's normal And what's not normal. I remember being young and, uh, being in the back of a car. I remember on this car trip and my friend was talking about like, Oh, this girl in school, her gums bleed all the time.

It's gross. And her mom said, That's normal. It's good for your gums to bleed every now and again. And I think I was probably like eight or nine. And I was like, No, that can't be right. Bleeding? That can't be right. And so I think that, you know, You know, [00:13:00] if you are someone listening to this and you're like, wow, okay.

I didn't, I didn't know that was a problem. Can't really fault you. Cause I think there's a big education issue happening. 

Dr. Sampson: Yeah, it is. It's a massive issue. I mean, um, I was actually doing an event today and it was all about how the public are not well educated on oral health or on oral hygiene. We often get taught by our parents how to brush our teeth and, um, their beliefs are passed on to us.

Um, and no offense, but often those beliefs have been passed on by their parents and their parents, and often they are a complete myth. Um, and so the, there's a big lack of education on oral health at school, um, even at the dental practice. And so we just kind of copy what our parents do and we hope for the best and, and that's not the case.

We now have developed so much that we understand so much more than our parents or our grandparents 

Dr. Brighten: did. Okay, I have to ask then, what is the right way to be caring for your mouth? [00:14:00] Brushing your teeth, frequency, how do we do it, like, what do you wish everybody knew? 

Dr. Sampson: Um, so, I like to keep it super simple. Um, you know, the, the dream would be that all you have to do is brush your teeth twice a day, with the right toothpaste, Floss, um, and that's it, and eat a good diet.

Like, it's so simple. Unfortunately, most of us don't have a good diet, most of us don't floss, and most of us don't use the right toothpaste products. And that's where we start to see this cascade of problems, and then we have to start giving you stronger strength toothpaste, and then we have to give you mouthwashes, and then, you know, but that's the basic for if you have a child, and you're raising them, that's where you want to teach them.

A big myth is that, um, you should rinse your mouth out with water after you brush your teeth. That's not true, that's not the case, so actually you should just spit out the residue in your basin and just walk away. So you want to keep all that lovely toothpaste all over your teeth, um, because it's doing a good job and it's remineralizing [00:15:00] your teeth.

Dr. Brighten: Mm hmm. What's the right toothpaste? 

Dr. Sampson: It depends. So, um, you know, it's, I like to prescribe toothpastes for my patients depending on what their needs are. So if they have severe sensitivity, we're going to give them a desensitizing one. If they have terrible gum disease and we'll give them something else. I don't think there's a good, you know, one size fits all.

Um, I can give you my top favorite ones. Um, but yeah. 

Dr. Brighten: I would love you to give me your top favorite ones because I would like to know that, you know, when it comes to kids or somebody who's starting at baseline, who doesn't have sensitivity problems, who doesn't have gum disease, these people who are like, I just need to be doing my best day to day.

What would you recommend? 

Dr. Sampson: So, um, you either are going to go down the hydroxyapatite route or the fluoride route. Um, so this is going to start another question, I'm sure, which is. Are you pro or anti fluoride? Oh, it's already on the list. It's already on the list 

Dr. Brighten: well [00:16:00] because you know in the u. s the they're actually taking it a lot more seriously this fluoride conversation than they have in the past, but Uh, but let's let's let you go toothpaste first 

Dr. Sampson: so, um, if you are going fluoride free, it's really important that you are using some sort of Remineralizing agent to protect your teeth So that in that case, it's hydroxyapatite.

Um, and there are lots and lots of different hydroxyapatite toothpaste on the market. And the issue is, is because it's, um, not really an FDA approved, um, substance, it's not very highly regulated. And so kind of any Joe can make his own hydroxyapatite in his kitchen and sell it. And we actually have no idea whether or not it's the correct particle size, whether it's effective or not.

And with hydroxyapatite, it is really important that the particle size is correct. Um, so I have done quite a lot of my own research and my favorite ones are Superteeth. Um, it's actually an American brand. It's got a combination of hydroxyapatite, prebiotics, it's [00:17:00] got CoQ10 in it, so it's a good all rounder.

It remineralizes, it strengthens the gums, it's SLS free. Um, Boca is good as well. That's a nice toothpaste if you're going fluoride free. Um, and then if you are going for a fluoride toothpaste, um, then I don't know if it's available in the U uh, in the U. S., but Biomin is my favourite. It's a really nice, happy medium.

It doesn't have very much fluoride in it, so it's got about, um, 400 parts per millimetre of fluoride in it. And to put it into perspective, a normal fluoride toothpaste has 2, 500 parts per millimetre on of fluoride in it. So it's super low, but it's got calcium, it's got phosphate, um, so it's very strengthening and remineralizing.

And that's kind of a nice, happy medium for people who maybe still do have decay and need a little bit more strength than a non fluoride toothpaste, or they're a bit scared, you know, those types of things. Why are we putting 

Dr. Brighten: CoQ10 in toothpaste? 

Dr. Sampson: It's actually been shown to be very effective for the [00:18:00] gums.

Um, so a lot of research has shown that in academic, like in hospitals, they have been applying CoQ10 on the gums, particularly in patients who suffer from gum disease, and it helps with the integrity of the gums. Um, and reduces the chance of gum disease. Weirdly, it hasn't really made its way onto the shelves in, um, in, you know, your, your main supermarkets, but I always recommend to patients that they take CoQ10 as a supplement and it's lovely if it's in a toothpaste too.

Dr. Brighten: Yeah, I take it as a supplement. Now I'm like, should I be opening it up, swishing it around and swallowing it? A lot of 

Dr. Sampson: people do. And, um, who was that? I forgot his name. The guy who, the reverses, uh, he says he has the biological age of like a 20, of a 20 year old. Oh, the 28 

Dr. Brighten: year old, the, the 40 something year old guy.

I, we will find his name, everybody. Maybe people will comment, but we will find his name. I know. I just, I know. I just came across, I had never heard of him and then I came across him, he was like in my threads feed. And I was like, who is this guy, like what's [00:19:00] going on here? 

Dr. Sampson: So he came out with his blueprint of like what he does to, to reverse his biological age.

And for the dental health bit, the only bit that he really said was that he applied CoQ10 onto his gums. And his dentist said that he had reversed his age. So I mean, I'm not, it's not, you know, for anyone who's listening out there, this is not hard science and research backed, but people seem to be doing it and seem to be really enjoying the benefits.

Dr. Brighten: Yeah, well, I think about people who are on fertility protocols, they're usually taking quite a bit of CoQ10 or people who need support for their mitochondrial health and if they're already doing it, like, like I said, I take it every day. I'm like, why not rub it on my gums and swallow it? That's, I'm like, that's a little tip.

I'm gonna, I'm gonna back away today. Um, you brought up fluoride. So, you know, I think a lot of the controversy comes from why are we putting fluoride in the water supply when it is so much more effective to put it [00:20:00] directly on the tooth rather into the whole system. And so I want people, I just want to start with that so people understand, uh, you know, when you're talking about fluoride treatments in a dental office when you're talking about what is on the toothpaste.

It is such a smaller amount and it is not going to be going systemic in the same way. So fluoride is controversial. What are your thoughts? 

Dr. Sampson: Um, every podcast I do, it's always the question or my heart kind of skips a beat every time because it is super controversial. Um, I, if I'm correct, a few states, It's very recently just, um, said that, uh, they do not want to put fluoride in their water.

Um, so I personally agree with that. I don't think we should have fluoride in our water. I think it's a very personal choice and, um, it's, you don't know how much people are drinking water and, you know, so in very, very high doses, fluoride has been shown to be neurotoxic and cause problems. But when I say high doses, [00:21:00] I'm talking, you know, you need to be mega.

Mega. Yeah. Um, in a toothpaste perspective, you would have to be maybe eating like eating maybe, you know, a couple of hundred toothpaste tubes in a day. And then maybe you might have high levels of fluoride. So for the average person who's using, you know, uh, a smear or a pea size of toothpaste on their toothbrush and they're not swallowing it, um, the benefit of fluoride, outweighs the risk of neurotoxicity massively.

But with that being said, I still do have a lot of patients who say, well, you know what? I don't want to have that in my mouth. I don't want to apply that. And I think that dental professionals need to understand at this point that it is the patient's choice what they use. And we shouldn't be shunning them and telling them no, like you have to use fluoride.

Um, so we need to be providing good care. Alternative fluoride free options which are just as remineralizing and strengthening So it's super important to anyone out there that they do find something that has [00:22:00] hydroxyapatite in it because at my clinic I attract a lot of fluoride free patients and they have They've, you know, found some misinformation on social media and they've been applying some sort of aloe vera, chamomile gel on their teeth and their children's teeth.

And they come in and they've got 20, you know, cavities and these kids needing six teeth taken out. And it's, it's disgusting. And it's, you know, you need to make sure that you are strengthening the teeth somehow in another way. 

Dr. Brighten: You just said a pea sized amount of toothpaste and if y'all have been following commercials Colgate taught us that you're just supposed to like You know, it's a it's like ten times that that they show putting on there So I think that's another thing if your dentist says like you need to have fluoride, this would be really hopeful Um, you know Understanding that it needs to be that pea sized application and it's not going to be what you saw on Colgate.

You know, as we were talking about, um, [00:23:00] toothpaste, one that I really love, Dr. Stacey, uh, she's in Portland, Oregon. That's actually where we lived, um, for a very long time. She was the very first dentist my son ever saw. So he knew her way back when. Uh, Florida is not in the water in Portland. Um, but she came out with Feed Your Good Guys, Fig, F Y G G.

And I have to tell you, I don't know if you've tried it, but they have this like vanilla icing or something. If icing tasted like that on cake, I would be just, like, I would be in trouble. It is the best tasting toothpaste. Like, my kids were using it, and I needed to use it, and I was like, Dang! You guys, we did not have toothpaste like this when I was a kid.

But that's another one with the, um, hydroxyapatite that I really love that I know you can get in the U. S. 

Dr. Sampson: Yes, yeah. No, that's also a good one. Thanks for reminding me. It's good. 

Dr. Brighten: Yeah. Well shout out to her I'm glad that she made it um, because it's seriously everybody listening. It's delicious. Um, And so yeah, [00:24:00] it just makes it really easy for my kids to brush their teeth You know, there's something else I just want to like Um, share with you that there's, um, these apps now.

Have you seen where they gamify toothbrushes and the toothbrush handle? I got my kids that for Christmas. Um, and they play these little games and they chase these tooth bugs. My toddler got so bought into teeth brushing. And, um, And it helped my oldest like so, so much. Poor kid, he has ADHD and brushing your teeth is like absolutely boring.

He wanted nothing to do with it. Uh, but any, any thoughts on those like the gamification of tooth brushing for kids that they have now? 

Dr. Sampson: I think it's great. I think that parents really struggle with getting their kids to brush their teeth. I mean, it's not the funnest thing, um, at the best of times. I mean adults can hardly do it, let alone kids.

So if you can make it fun, go for it. I mean, when I'm teaching kids how to brush their teeth, I tell them to listen to a song, like their favorite songs, usually about two minutes and they can dance whilst they brush their teeth. Um, [00:25:00] yours sounds much funner and cooler. I'm clearly very boring, but it has the same effect.

Dr. Brighten: Let me just tell you, this was like Black Friday was like. Amazon's like, you need this? And I was like, I do. How did you know? So I got it and I wrapped it up for Christmas. And so we like, made a whole thing about it. I am a very boring mom. Like, you got toothbrushes for Christmas, but it has this app and like, once and it'll tell them like, keep going.

Oh, you're going too fast. You need to slow down. Go back to this area. So it's coaching them the whole time. And then when they get to the end, they like, get a mask and they get like, a mask. Stars and it's a whole thing that, um, has really, even my oldest, I'm like your technique is so much better now that you, like the video game is like, you know, the gamification of it is like, what did it mom sitting there being like, Oh, let's make sure we angle the toothbrush.

Let's do this. That no, that was not. We needed that extra. But yeah, I mean, for Christmas getting toothbrushes. [00:26:00] But they also got to like, yeah, they got to have like a cell phone out now when they brush their teeth. So like getting screens also feels like a treat because it's within the bedtime hour. If that helps anyone, let me know.

I'll put the links in the show notes to like this, the stuff that we're talking about here in case anyone needs help. But we're going to shift gears. away from, um, video games for your teeth. I'm like, as I'm like thinking about it, I'm like, maybe I should get that. Um, but I want to talk about the emerging research that's coming out regarding the oral microbiome and cancer.

There's specific cancers that are linked to the oral microbiome. What have you seen in the research? I know that you were lecturing all over the world, teaching people about this. So I would love for you to share with our listeners about this connection. 

Dr. Sampson: So yeah, there's been, um, a few cancers in particular.

Um, so colorectal cancer, um, got quite the, um, spotlight by Apple News. I was, it was, I think like a couple of months ago. Um, and also breast [00:27:00] cancer. Um, we're seeing it with a lot of other cancers and it's, It's, um, essentially what it seems to be showing all of this research is that specific oral bacteria, in particular one called Fusobacterium nucleatum, is being found, um, in very, very high levels in tumors.

And so, for example, with the colorectal cancer, um, connection, uh, colorectal cancer is, It's quite rife around with younger generations now, and we just can't explain why. Um, and some people say it's because we're having more, um, you know, processed food, but still we don't really understand. And what they have found is that in more than 50 percent of colorectal, um, cancer tumors, there is Fusobacterium nucleatum in very high levels.

compared to patients who don't have it. Um, and what they're also finding is that the patients who do have Fusobacterium Nucleatum in their, um, cancer, those types of cancer are more aggressive. [00:28:00] And so they're looking into whether or not there is a mechanism which is making the Fusobacterium Nucleatum, um, exacerbate or speed up the, um, the kind of development of the, uh, cancer.

Okay. Um, for the breast cancer, it's a bit earlier stage. Um, so with colorectal cancer, it's pretty established at this point. And I actually am working with an amazing professor. Um, he's part of my advisory board, and he is looking at actually a specific antibiotic that only kills Fusobacterium nucleatum.

Um, and if that's possible, then that could be a potential treatment for cancer actually, and not for the gums. Yeah, and he's, uh, he's a, um, he's a dentist. But this is where we're seeing the mouth being put back into the body. Um with breast cancer, it's a relatively similar, um thing. So a lot of people are saying that actually now breasts do have their own microbiome.

They have lots of different bacteria. I didn't know that until quite recently to be honest with you that uh, your breast [00:29:00] has a microbiome, but it kind of makes sense. Yeah, 

Dr. Brighten: isn't it crazy though? Like how how far we've come in all of this like where it used to be like, oh the gut, you know That is the only microbiome and it doesn't do anything, it doesn't matter.

And to see where we're at now, this, um, Fusobacterium, Being in the colon, is that presumably because it's being swallowed? Is that the connection? Or is it just like through the whole tube? Like, what's going on there? 

Dr. Sampson: Through, uh, swallowing, yeah. So Fusobacterium nucleatum is a predominantly oral bacteria.

You don't find it elsewhere. Um, and this, uh, bacteria seems to be associated with a lot of other problems, not just cancer, but also, um, things like infertility, um, you know, high inflammation. And, um, so it, it's, um, We're looking into Fusobacterium nucleatum a lot more and understanding it, but from an oral perspective, it's quite easy to get rid of, um, it's just regular hygiene.

Green tea is particularly effective at getting rid of Fusobacterium nucleatum as well, so I [00:30:00] think this is opening the doors to a lot more research and actually, potentially, oral treatments to help with, um, 

Dr. Brighten: That's so interesting because green tea is such a great antioxidant and it is recommended for cancer prevention.

Um, but you're saying actually consuming green tea, is it like just a cup a day or three cups a day can have an impact, a positive impact on your oral microbiome? 

Dr. Sampson: Um, so I think the research says at minimum one cup. So just one cup a day is enough to actually reduce your level of Fusobacterium Nucleatum.

The annoying thing is, is that green tea does stain your teeth, so just for anyone out there who's going to go and start gargling green tea all over their teeth, because I've had that before, your teeth will go green. Um, so you can get, uh, maybe in a supplement form, or I actually recommend to a lot of my patients, like there's some, uh, chewing gums, which are green tea with like a xylitol, um, and you can chew that every, Couple of hours or so it helps with your saliva production.

It's naturally antibacterial and [00:31:00] it's got your green tea in it, too 

Dr. Brighten: I yeah, I really love hearing that you can also supplement with it Um, there's lots of supplements out there that do not have caffeine So for people who can't drink caffeine, you know in our product line It's decaffeinated green tea that we put in because it's super helpful with hormonal health.

There's been um research about weight loss so now to hear that like oh it also helps your oral microbiome i'm like Yes, because um, I'm more of a turmeric, which also stains your teeth, and, and coffee person, uh, than I am green tea, but, um, I love these quick, like, little things of like, this is how we can shift our oral microbiome, because I think as soon as you say, you know, colon cancer, you say breast cancer, that really starts to raise red flags.

It makes people feel panicky, and from what I'm hearing from you, we can take good care of our oral health, Probably go to the dentist regularly. And consume green tea, and that's one way that we can shift the [00:32:00] microbiome of our mouth in a positive way. 

Dr. Sampson: Yeah, I think, like, you know, with so many, um, diseases, um, they're all multifactorial.

And particularly with, um, things like colorectal cancer, like breast cancer, where again, there's not really often just one cause and we don't know what even started that cancer in the first place. All we can do is try and reduce the risk of it ever getting worse, um, or it ever happening. And something as simple as like brushing your teeth, like going to the dentist, it's like really easy compared to some of the things that I see my patients willing to do to reduce their risk.

Um, so it's a really easy thing to take away. 

Dr. Brighten: So, you mentioned infertility. Infertility in the oral microbiome, there's a big connection there that most doctors are not aware of, which means that most patients are not being made aware of. If somebody is struggling to get pregnant, stay pregnant, what would you want them to know right now about their oral health?

So, [00:33:00] 

Dr. Sampson: um, there is a lot of research for men and women. woman in terms of infertility. When it comes to women, um, research has found that, that women who have periodontal disease, it takes them two months longer to conceive. Um, and that's to do with, um, the release, well, the lack of release of certain hormones, um, uh, to do with your periodontal disease.

Um, gum disease, Gum disease is also one of the biggest side effects of gum disease, and what connects the mouth to the rest of the body is inflammation. So it's what we call low grade chronic inflammation, and this is the idea that constantly there is this chronic firing of inflammatory markers or inflammation from the mouth elsewhere to the rest of the body.

Um, and this is where it can exacerbate inflammatory conditions that you might already have, or it can cause inflammatory conditions. And so with pretty much every disease, um, that's a strong connection with gum disease, including infertility. Um, again, our big baddie Fusobacterium [00:34:00] nucleatum is also one of the, um, key star players in this.

And what they have found is that patients who have periodontal disease Um, have a much higher risk of preterm birth or low birth weight as well. And they have found very high levels of particularly Fusobacterium nucleatum in the amniotic fluid of women who gave birth, um, early or gave birth to a low birth weight child.

So it's hard to say the thing, it's hard to say like, you know, Um, if you get rid of the Fusobacterium nucleotidum, will that improve your, um, the birth weight of your child or the, you know, when you deliver? But this is the research that we are seeing, um, also increases your risk of preeclampsia. They did a really cool study in Malawi, um, it was 10, 000 patients.

And Malawi has the highest rate of preterm birth in the world. I think it's just under 20 percent. [00:35:00] And unfortunately, you know, many women in Malawi do not have the medical care that they need for preterm birth. And so it's become a really big issue. So weirdly, Wrigley's, the chewing gum company, thought that they would do something about it.

And so they went to Malawi. And what they did is they gave these 10, 000 women. Um, sugar free chewing gum. They showed them how to brush their teeth and that's it. No, no treatments, nothing. Um, and they found that after a couple of months, the, there was just over 20 percent reduction in preterm births, um, in pregnant woman in Malawi, and that's just from chewing gum and it was a sugar free xylitol gum and just brushing their teeth.

So I guess the takeaway would be brush your teeth. Um, I know that when you're pregnant, you're probably. quite busy with a lot of things. Um, but chewing 

Dr. Brighten: gum, spearmint gum, peppermint can be great for nausea. Yeah. So [00:36:00] in the first trimester, that could be a great, great way that you are affecting your oral health and you're affecting your nausea as well.

Dr. Sampson: Yeah, and during pregnancy as well, there's something called pregnancy gingivitis, and this is where the gums get super inflamed during pregnancy. It's to do with hormonal fluctuations and, um, um, Therefore, women should be coming every three months, in my opinion, for a hygiene during pregnancy. Um, just because, in my experience, what I found is that, uh, during pregnancy, pregnant women, their gums will get very inflamed.

They won't really do anything about it. They're busy. Then they give birth. Then they're super busy. And the last thing they're thinking about is their own gums. So, they don't come for one year, two years, three years. And during that time, those inflamed gums have never been able to heal properly. So going back to my turtleneck analogy of the gums tightly around the teeth, they're all flappy.

Now bacteria is able to get under the [00:37:00] gums and then these women are coming back three, four years later and they have terrible gum disease. So, um, I always say to women, pregnant woman, come every three months during pregnancy. And then you're probably going to be really busy, so I'll give you your, I don't know, six months, nine months with your baby, and then you can come back and see me again.

Yeah. Because it is really, really important that you do take care of your gums during pregnancy. Mm 

Dr. Brighten: hmm there I'm just curious you there was a mention of male infertility as well What have the studies shown us about oral health and how strong the swimmers men have? 

Dr. Sampson: So the biggest one that always gets the men to brush those teeth is that men with periodontal disease are 2.

85 times more likely to have erectile dysfunction. Ooh, yeah, that'll do it. So anytime I have a man who doesn't brush their teeth, I give them that statistic and they'll go and buy a toothbrush. Um, and the reason behind that is because [00:38:00] one of the other mechanisms that connects the mouth to the rest of the body is, um, how the bacteria can travel from the mouth elsewhere and it goes through the blood vessels, it can release these toxins and those toxins will impact how the blood vessels will dilate and, um, uh, constrict.

And so, essentially what happens is that you don't have enough blood flow to the penis, Um, because there's a lack of vasodilation, um, and that's being caused by your periodontal disease and all that inflammation from the mouth. Um, in terms of actual infertility, uh, there was a cool study that they did where, um, they had a whole bunch of men, um, who were subfertile.

And they checked all their mouths, and they found that over 90 percent of these men had some sort of oral infection. Be it gum disease, or uh, decay, you know, a wisdom tooth that needs to come out, or root canal, something. So they split the group into two, um, half the group got the dental treatment that they [00:39:00] needed.

and the other half of the group were left to their own devices. And, um, seven or eight months later, 70 percent improvement in spermatic parameters and, um, success in pregnancy for the group who had the dental treatment that was needed. Um, 70 percent is insane. It is insane. Yeah. 

Dr. Brighten: I'm, so, so often in infertility cases, everything is about the woman.

Everything is about. Her body's broken. Her eggs are bad. Like, this whole talk is like so, uh, degrading, really. And to hear 70 percent just from taking care of your mouth, it seems to me So, it's always been my recommendation as part of a fertility journey. If somebody, you know, what I call pre baby body ready, if you want to get pre baby body ready, then It needs to be like your oral health, your gut health, there's a lot of things that [00:40:00] we look at, but it seems just in hearing the research that this is a huge gap in medicine that isn't being addressed in couples and we're seeing, you know, sensational headlines of like, you know, sperm count is way down, like 50 percent of our grandfathers and All of this just starts to make me think about food choices, oral health, and what is actually happening in these individuals that they're testing that maybe we're missing.

Sure, environmental toxins are You cannot argue that they are not a problem. They're absolutely a problem, but it sounds like we've got a lot more going on here. 

Dr. Sampson: 100 percent and like you said, you know, we always blame, not blame, but the women are the ones who have to go searching high and low for a reason why they can't be successful in conception, when often actually the issue lies with the man, and he needs to be doing just as many checks as the woman is.

Dr. Brighten: Mm hmm. I'm curious if you've seen any connection between the oral microbiome and endometriosis. We now [00:41:00] are having more research coming out that shows there's a gut connection to endometriosis. Nobody who's paying attention is shocked by that, that it looks a lot more like an autoimmune disease. Again, only a shocker to the people who are like, these reproductive organs have nothing else to do with the rest of your body.

Have you seen any connection though in terms of dental health? 

Dr. Sampson: So anecdotally from my own patients, um, I'm in a bit of a bubble because I kind of attract the patients who have these unexplainable issues, you know, you know what we were talking about the beginning, those, those red flags. Those are the types of patients who come and see me.

Um, and what I have found is that, um, patients who do suffer from endometriosis do have very inflamed gums. or just randomly bleeding gums. That's what I've seen the most is that they don't have gum disease, um, but their gums bleed all the time. So I actually had a case of, um, a lovely girl. Um, and she was like 23, 24 years old.

Um, she [00:42:00] actually hadn't been diagnosed with endometriosis yet. Um, we didn't really know what was going on with her gums. And every couple of months she was coming in religiously for a hygiene. Because she was like, my gums bleed, you know, I must have gum disease, and, um, you know, a couple of months later, you know, and I said to her, I was like, I think there's something else going on here.

And we do a lot of saliva testing, um, that's my main specialty, and we did a special test called AMMP8, so that's Activated Matrix Metalloproteinase 8, um, and what that looks at is collagen breakdown. So we've got collagen and, you know, lots of different types of collagen in our body, and our gums are made out of a certain type of collagen.

And this enzyme looks at how rapid that collagen is being broken down. And if you have collagen breakdown, that usually means that you have gum disease, and we're tracking it and flagging it up before, um, we see symptoms in the mouth. So we did this test on her. She had really high levels of AM and PA, like, through the roof, but she didn't have gum disease.

[00:43:00] We'd been monitoring her every few months, retesting, and it just wouldn't go down. And so finally, I said, you know, you should probably just go to your GP. There's, there's something else going on here. And it turns out that she did get diagnosed with endometriosis. Um, and since then, she's actually going through some treatment and she seems to be much, much better.

And weirdly, her bleeding gums have improved, and also her AM and P8 levels have improved as well. So, it is definitely, it's super early days, um, and there's, I, you know, I can't reel off lots of studies that connect endometriosis and the oral microbiome, but anecdotally, I do see a lot of, um, hormonal, uh, fluctuations in the gums with endometriosis patients.

Dr. Brighten: In reality, you cannot list off tons of studies on anything about endometriosis. It's so understudied and that's why I think we, you know, there's something that happened in like the last four years where the only evidence that people will now accept is the peer [00:44:00] reviewed published paper, which we know those are very problematic in themselves and sometimes get retracted for good reason.

But they forget that clinical evidence is very sound. If you, and that is honestly how researchers figure out what to be studying because of what clinicians are observing, what patients are reporting, and so the patient's experience is so very important. And, you know, to the point with endometriosis, this is systemic.

It's so often people are like, oh, it just affects your uterus, which I always laugh. I'm like, no, by definition it's. tissue that's kind of like what's in your uterus, but not so much everywhere else in your body. And it literally can be everywhere else, but it's a systemic issue. And we know that there's lots of inflammation, there can be gut dysfunction, and so it makes sense that the mouth could be affected as well.

Why was her gum, why were they bleeding if she didn't have gum disease? 

Dr. Sampson: That's what I can't explain. And she's not the only one. I've had it a few times where it's [00:45:00] Just unexplainable bleeding gums. Um, and there are some, um, you know, if there's a dentist out there who's listening and they'll be like, ah, I know exactly what it is.

There are some, um, unfortunately cancers which are associated with unexplainable bleeding ggl gums, and we tested for them. So she did not have that. She had perfect oral hygiene. They were just kind of inflamed. And the poor girl was flossing, you know, three times a day, brushing like she's never brushed before.

And I guess, like you said. It's maybe similar ish tissue, um, around the body. I totally agree it's an autoimmune condition and generally with autoimmune conditions, I always recommend to patients that they, you know, they're at a much higher risk of gum disease because it's the same inflammatory pathway and they need to be a lot better with their oral hygiene than the average person.

Dr. Brighten: Yeah, so, um, I am the person who gets bleeding gums. I'm just gonna share this with you. I go to the dentist and they're just like, you're not taking good enough care of your teeth because they [00:46:00] bleed. No pockets, no signs of gum disease. I'm a waterpik person, not a flossing person so much. Um, and I just got diagnosed with endometriosis.

Just last year. Really? Yeah, and so as I'm hearing this because I'm like what made her gums bleed You're like, I don't know and I'm like, yeah There's um, I honestly like have hopped several dentists because when they're like you're not taking good enough care of your mouth I'm like I yeah, yes. Okay. I'm doing the thing.

Um, I hate that one. I think everybody Hates that when they berate you and also I think the hygienist being like, you know, there's so many great hygienists out there But there are some that just like make people never want to come back But to hear that now, I'm just like oh Oh, I mean, I'm a little scared about the cancer thing, but I'm also like, oh, that's so interesting because that's, that has now shown up for me and to see that connection.

You mentioned autoimmunity. Say more about autoimmune health and oral health. You actually had a, [00:47:00] um, a story that you were telling about a woman's rheumatoid arthritis that had reduced, the symptoms reduced significantly once her oral health got in check. Yeah. So that actually was. 

Dr. Sampson: Probably why I became the dentist that I am now.

Um, she was a very, um, kind of monumental patient in my career. Um, so this was a couple of years back. I was a pretty normal dentist I would call it did your bog standard stuff and um, I had a nutritionist. He was a functional medicine practitioner. Sorry Who was treating this patient who suffered from very severe rheumatoid arthritis She had seen three four different functional medicine practitioners and just never really She didn't really improve anything, she was on really high levels of methotrexate, she, you know, couldn't walk properly, she was really unhappy.

And he was the first functional medicine practitioner who actually asked her, uh, have you gone to the dentist, do you take care of your mouth? She said, well actually yes I [00:48:00] do, um, but you know, I've had six, seven teeth taken out in the last two years. And he was like, that's not normal. Um, and she was like in her forties.

So he was like, well, you see my normal No, not at all. So he was like, well, you see my friend victoria. Um, she's a dentist, but she has this weird obsession with saliva So he sent me over she she came over to me. I tested her saliva I was very interested at the time, but I didn't really get maybe as much the mouth body connection So I tested her saliva and going back to that Test the AMMP8 test for collagen breakdown again through the roof super super high levels We did an oral microbiome test as well.

We checked all of her bacteria And it was pretty imbalanced as well. So she had quite severe gum disease And what we did is I treated her gum disease Um, quite aggressively, to be honest with you, like we did a lot of treatment for her gums. And at the same time, her functional medicine practitioner changed her diet, you know, um, changed her supplement regime.

And the aim was that we [00:49:00] were going to get her off methotrexate. And lo and behold, uh, six months later, we retest her AM and P8 levels and it's, um, zero. So that means there's no collagen breakdown, no more gum disease. Um, she's completely stable with her gums. And the most, uh, important thing was that she was off methotrexate.

And she was so much better and so much happier, um, and a lot of people will be like, Oh, well, how do you know that it was your treatment that helped? And I was like, well, look, she went to three, four other functional medicine practitioners before my friend, and they all changed her diet. They all do the same, you know, curcumin, la la la, you know, all the same anti inflammatories.

And she still didn't get the results. And so it's actually when, you know, we work together, that we can actually improve patients health much more. And so that opened my eyes to the idea behind maybe inflammatory conditions and periodontal disease because they are pretty much, they use the same pathway and the same [00:50:00] mechanisms.

So going back to the low grade chronic inflammation, that constant firing of inflammation from the mouth, if you have rheumatoid arthritis. And you've got loads of inflammation in your mouth, and it's just firing elsewhere to the rest of your body. You're just exacerbating that inflammation, and it's just making your life much worse, and you won't be able to treat the arthritis because your mouth has all that inflammation.

But if you treat both of them at the same time, then it'll be much better. So there's a strong bi directional relationship with your inflammatory conditions, and therefore kind of also, you know, Um, a lot of your autoimmune conditions as well because the immune system is on overdrive and part of an overdrive of your immune system is often quite a strong release of inflammatory markers and inflammation.

Dr. Brighten: Yes, so everybody listening, this is precisely why I refer every autoimmune patient, every chronic gut infection, somebody who has SIBO, they can never clear it, inflammation and we don't know where it's coming from patient, to a functional dentist. [00:51:00] And I would really prefer all my patients see functional dentists is this exact reason that they they get that all the work that they Are doing in the mouth is connected But also I want practitioners who are listening to understand that we have to ally with other practitioners So when I'm taking someone's history and they're like I've seen a dozen Practitioners and my gut is not getting better and I'm sick still having, you know, all of this, like all of these symptoms of low grade inflammation.

So maybe it's achy joints, maybe it's a bit of brain fog, like it's just not feeling well in your body. That is where we have to really look outside of our scope and see the body as a whole. And so I love that you share that story and that you're doing this. And I hope that inspires practitioners who are listening to really ally with Dennis.

And it has to be particular, mindset of dentists, right? As you said, there's the run of the mill dentist, um, which are great, they serve their own purpose, but, you know, for example, um, in [00:52:00] Portland, Oregon, when I was practicing there, well, I still have patients that I refer to Blodgett Dental, which, like, I mean, I don't know if you're familiar with his work, but the number of patients that have gotten, you know, reverse their autoimmunity, who, they did everything right and still we couldn't get that last 10 percent that they were really aiming for and yet finding the hidden infections in the mouth.

changed everything and instead of that extra 10%, we got like an extra 30%. So we exceeded what their expectations were. 

Dr. Sampson: Now 100%, we need to be working together more and you're right, there's many different types of dentists and your, anyone who's listening, you're probably going to Google afterwards and be confused, there's We like to be annoying, some are functional dentists, some are biological, some are holistic, some are traditional, some are aesthetic, but, um, I, you know, you need to find someone who resonates with you, um, and trust them as well.

Dr. Brighten: Is there like a website or a good [00:53:00] place for people to go and find a dentist? 

Dr. Sampson: Um, so ask the dentist, um, he's Dr. Mark B. I don't know, I don't know how to pronounce his surname, but I think it's Berheem. Um, he has, um, just ask the dentist. If you search that he has, um, like a, a finder map, um, where he has.

Located dentists who have a similar mindset to him He's got quite a few dentists on there all around the world. So I'd say that's a good starting point 

Dr. Brighten: Okay, I love that. I want to shift gears. We've talked about fertility. We've talked about endometriosis We have talked about cancer. I want to talk about metabolic health And how the microbiome is connected.

Dr. Sampson: Um, so again, you know, a lot of these have the same pathways, um, it's low grade chronic inflammation it's um issues with your blood vessels constricting and dilating and the last one is Bacteria traveling [00:54:00] elsewhere and infecting other parts of your body. So those are your like, your three mechanisms which connect everything.

Uh, with metabolic disease, um, let's say if we take diabetes as an example, um, that has the strongest connection with gum disease. Um, so pretty much every dentist should know that connection. They might not know the infertility and the Alzheimer's, heart disease, all of that stuff, but diabetes has been one that we have been taught since, you know, uh, First year of dental school.

Weirdly, medical doctors are not taught that. It is 

Dr. Brighten: strange, right? It is really weird. 

Dr. Sampson: But they're now actually arguing that gum disease should be the 7th complication of diabetes. And what we're finding is that patients who have gum disease are at a much higher risk of diabetes, so it's around 30%, and patients who have diabetes have just about 50 percent higher risk of gum disease.[00:55:00] 

They're extremely bi directional, so that means that if you improve one, it will improve the other. And another study actually showed that just by doing one hygiene, um, that can reduce your HbA1c levels by 0. 5%. Um, and that is a huge reduction just from like a 45 minute hygiene, but that shows you how strong the, um, the connection is between diabetes and gum disease.

Dr. Brighten: Yeah, and for everybody listening, the hemoglobin A1c is the marker of what your blood sugar's been at, on average, for the last three months. It's much more sensitive and specific than doing just a random fasting glucose. So, when you see that number move, that's in such a way that's very promising. And, as you say all of this, I really think about the polycystic ovarian syndrome woman, um, And so PCOS women and those in perimenopause and entering menopause because we know

The accumulation of visceral adiposity [00:56:00] starts. So that's the belly fat, the muffin top that some people call it, but in medicine we're like, that's the fat packing around your organs that makes us freak out because now we know cardiometabolic disease is rising. And so I think about that and I think about how we're really, You should be considering, in TCOS women and perimenopause women, I'd say before you get to menopause, getting that oral evaluation.

This is why I'm like, we shouldn't have separate dental insurance, this shouldn't be separate, this should be part of your checklist of things that you do as part of that holistic approach to your body. And I just think about, You know, how, and for people listening, we have other episodes about adiposity.

When I think about how important this connection is and how we should be monitoring that in women as well. We also know as estrogen drops, that the gut microbiome diversity drops. So we see this association. I wonder how that's affecting the oral microbiome. So, um, 

Dr. Sampson: [00:57:00] we, it's funny, I had this conversation literally this morning about Stop.

Perimenopause and menopause. Stop. It's time. No, because it's a conversation that we really don't, um, talk about and, um, it's, I mean, it happens to more than 50 percent of this world and 100 percent of us that live 

Dr. Brighten: long enough 

Dr. Sampson: and it's, it's just insane. And so, um, what we have found with, uh, menopause. Um, is again, like you were saying, when the oestrogen levels drop, um, your gums can inflame quite significantly.

Um, a lot of patients will suffer from dry mouth, they'll get ulcers, um, and the one which I think is unfortunately the worst is something called burning mouth syndrome. Oh, I was hoping you would say that. It is the worst though. It's horrible. I feel so bad every time I have a woman walk through the door with it because to this day there is no Treatment that works really, you know, we try everything and I've got my [00:58:00] own tricks up my sleeve, but some patients it just doesn't work for them What are your tricks?

Whoa, 

Dr. Brighten: whoa. Whoa, you can't say that and not give it 

Dr. Sampson: So weirdly b12 injections and so or b12 supplementation can really help with it Would Sublate 

Dr. Brighten: will work for that? 

Dr. Sampson: Sublingual would too, um, but like super high dose you want to be giving, um, testing for iron, folate and zinc deficiencies and making sure they're okay.

Um, I've had some patients, and I think I even messaged you about it once, but I've had some patients who have tried to Um, balance, you know, use HRT or rebalance their hormones in the kind of aim to improve their burning mouth. And it has actually improved significantly. Um, what I hate the most is that, unfortunately for women who are suffering from burning mouth syndrome, The treatment that is on offer for them is basically anti depressants, which I just think is It's always anti depressants.

Yeah, it's They're 

Dr. Brighten: like, oh yeah, were you born with ovaries? Let's medicate your [00:59:00] mind. It reminds me of, 

Dr. Sampson: you know, a hundred years ago when we were like, oh, these women, they're hysterical. Like, it's, it's hysteria. They're, it's mania. They're just, you know, they're crazy and it's not, but the issue is, is no one can see that.

The, what these women are suffering. We, as a dentist, I can't see anything. I believe them, but I can't do anything about it. It's just horrible. So, um, yeah. High, high vitamin B is the only thing that I've seen help. And sometimes testosterone or estrogen, like, balancing, and like, that's your domain. But, kind of, trying to rebalance all of those things.

Dr. Brighten: Yeah, so I do want to just say for everybody, because I was kind of flipping about SSRIs, they do have a time and a place and if you're on them now, um, you may, they work for you, you need them, that's fantastic. Burning mouth has not been a place where I see that they actually work, they're prescribed, but I haven't actually seen anybody benefit from that.

Um, we've been talking about it, define what burning mouth is for people, what are the symptoms? 

Dr. Sampson: Um, so the name kind of explains it. It's a burning sensation in the mouth, [01:00:00] um, particularly the tongue. Um, a lot of patients will literally feel like their tongue is on fire constantly. Um, they particularly find having spicy foods really difficult and also things that have benzoates in it.

So cinnamon, for example, will trigger it quite aggressively and also alcohol as well. So it honestly, It can completely ruin a woman's life. I know women who, you know, they can't eat anything. They are on painkillers. It's, it's not a nice thing. So, um, yeah. 

Dr. Brighten: The best thing that I would say for everybody who feels concerned about this is that if you are in your 40s now Talk to your doctor about HRT plan so hormone replacement therapy if you are a candidate like what is that going to look like for you in the future because And I did I'll link I did a whole episode on perimenopause and talking about these things But we understand now that if we start hormones before you are officially in menopause You A lot of these things [01:01:00] like burning mouth, dry mouth, dry eyes, changes in vision, like we can actually head them off at the pass.

And it's not to say like, you know, this, this will absolutely stop it from ever happening, but it gives you a better shot at those things. And, you know, it's, it's a lot easier to prevent it. then once you have burning mouth syndrome, uh, it can be a lot more difficult. It's interesting that you brought up, um, the spicy food because I do have some people who are like, um, they were like, I just ate a ton of spicy food and it would like bring me relief.

And I think that's, uh, that's an area that, like, neurologists need to be studying, like what is going on there. 

Dr. Sampson: Yeah, I, I, yeah, you're actually right because Um, it's, it's one or the other. Some people, spicy food is the worst thing. Other people are making this homemade Tabasco mouthwash and they're rinsing their mouth with it and it relieves their, their burning mouth.

And you're totally right. Like we should be speaking to some sort of neuro, I don't know what's going on there, but yeah. So actually you're [01:02:00] right. It's complete opposites, but one or the other. 

Dr. Brighten: Yeah, yeah. Well, and then there's some people who are like, I like really hot beverages or people who are like, I need iced beverages, like as cold as possible.

Um, yeah, it really just depends on the individual. And I think that's the thing too, is that when, when, like, You know, when you look at a population and the majority of people are saying one thing and then you are kind of an outlier, that makes it also so the doctors are less likely to believe you. So, I want you to know that if you are experiencing this, there are providers out there that can support you.

I think it's, um, one of the awful things, uh, in menopause. There can be many, but some people go through menopause just totally fine. So, I never like to be like doom and gloom. Like, it's definitely gonna be the worst thing ever. Yeah, 

Dr. Sampson: no a hundred percent and if it if you do have those problems, then there's lots of people like us around so 

Dr. Brighten: yeah I want to switch gears to Alzheimer's and oral health and what because you [01:03:00] mentioned Doctors should be more aware dentists know about diabetes and oral health Doctors should be more aware of it.

But if dentists aren't even aware of the connection of Alzheimer's and oral health, like, what is it that your doctor doesn't know that you think every patient should be aware of? Um, so 

Dr. Sampson: there is a lot of research. I think sometimes people, um, when I'm speaking about this, this research and evidence, they're like, Oh, like, you know, is it cause?

Is it correlation? Um, you know, Is there actually any evidence behind this? And, um, Alzheimer's in particular, there's a lot more in the last maybe three or four years, and it's kind of ballooned. Um, so, you know, Alzheimer's is, um, something that we still don't fully understand. We don't truly understand what causes it, and we don't understand the, mechanisms behind it at all still.

What we do understand is that it's multifactorial and there are many things that contribute and some [01:04:00] people have a genetic predisposition to Alzheimer's. Um, from an oral perspective, um, we have found that there's a specific oral bacteria called Porphyromonas gingivalis. And, um, this is a terrible bacteria, you don't want this in your mouth.

I'm like, 

Dr. Brighten: I'm getting tested immediately. 

Dr. Sampson: But the worst bit is that a lot of people have it. Oh God. Yeah, majority of patients do have it. And so P. gingivalis, um, it releases a specific, some species of it. So P. gingivalis, there's lots of different strains of it. Some strains of the P. gingivalis, um, can release toxic enzymes and these toxic enzymes are called gingipanes and they're able to travel from the mouth up to the brain.

gingipane. 

Dr. Brighten: It's 

Dr. Sampson: so 

Dr. Brighten: cute but so devilish. 

Dr. Sampson: Yeah, very terrible. Gingipanes are not cute. So they travel from the mouth up to the brain and they're able to cross the blood brain barrier. And they can actually [01:05:00] cause destruction of your neurons. Um, so they were found, ginger paints were found in 97 percent of the cerebrospinal fluid of Alzheimer's sufferers compared to, yeah, compared to patients who did not suffer from Alzheimer's.

Dr. Brighten: Yeah. 

Dr. Sampson: So this is, you know, for all those people who are like, Oh, well, maybe it's just a correlation. No, that's a pretty strong kind of evidence there. Um, and, uh, on top of that, what they've also found is there's a lot of very, very longitudinal studies that have been happening. Um, so there was one, I think it was, uh, I cannot remember where exactly, um, but they basically found that if you had gum disease for over 10 years, then the risk of developing Alzheimer's increased by 70%.

Wait, 7 0? 70, yes. 70%! Yeah. And it was, uh, We're all getting tested 

Dr. Brighten: today. 

Dr. Sampson: Um, and it was on nearly 19, 000 citizens. So it's not a small [01:06:00] study. It was done, you know, I think it was over a 15 year study as well. So um, going back to the causes of Alzheimer's, there are so many things that we cannot change, like our genetics.

It's, And, um, porphyromonas gingivalis is a neural bacteria that we can get rid of. So what I've been working on in particular is, um, a saliva test. Um, and it's, it's been my little, uh, baby for the past year or two. And something I was really passionate about was being able to identify porphyromonas gingivalis, but more importantly, being able to identify those gingipanes.

you and virulence factors. So we're not yet at a stage where we can make claims that, okay, you know, you've got these enzymes and that means that you're at X risk of Alzheimer's at all. But what we can, what I have identified is we've identified about 10 different virulence factors. So these are things that are released by the bacteria, which are virulent and cause problems, including your gingive pains.

And so we can see the levels of those gingive pains in our [01:07:00] patient's oral saliva. 

Dr. Brighten: I want to say for everybody listening, there tends to be this like, um, I don't really want to say traditional, more of a conventional medicine approach, which is that one thing Has an effect. One thing elicits an effect. And so often things that are multifactorial, um, will get dismissed, overlooked in medicine.

And so I think this so much comes out of a pharmaceutical mindset. You give one pharmaceutical and then you look for this effect. Great. That applies in that arena. However, you know, as Dr. Dale Brednison, I don't know if you're familiar with his work, but he It's done an amazing thing in Alzheimer's. I saw him speak one time and he said, he gave this analogy which I thought was so impactful.

Um, do y'all have colanders in the UK? The thing you wash your vegetables in or strain pasta? Okay, okay. Um, I'm like, maybe I'm saying that wrong. I say a lot of words wrong. It's okay. So he, it's basically like this sieve, [01:08:00] right, or a colander, and you've got 35 holes, and that you need to plug in, you know, people X amount.

So if you've got 35 holes, maybe one person needs 10 plugged, or someone needs the 15 plugged, but basically, you need to plug these holes, and so that's where Conventional medicine has failed so long in Alzheimer's treatment is that they've tried to just find the one thing and with Alzheimer's It's a kitchen sink approach Which has been something that conventional medicine has definitely like drug and been like that That's just a kitchen sink.

You don't know how what affects it. It has to be diet. It has to be It has to be lifestyle, it has to be oral health, it has to be gut health, it has to be the environment. Like we have to be looking at all those factors when it comes to Alzheimer's, and so what I'm hearing is that we've got an opportunity to look at one more risk factor to plug one more hole.

And that is, Is super exciting to me. You mentioned though, this, um, you've been mentioning saliva testing. What is this saliva test called? Like, can people [01:09:00] order it? Like, how does it work? Can you go to a dentist and get it? 

Dr. Sampson: Um, so it's, yeah, my little baby. Um, I've been doing oral microbiome testing or saliva testing for a good couple of years.

And, um, I just, I, I wanted to find a solution for my own problem, um, And that somehow has culminated in me. creating my own saliva test. Um, and that's actually launching, um, on the 19th of October. So what we've done is, um, we have created an oral microbiome test that looks at lots and lots of bacteria. So we're looking at actually a couple of hundred bacteria.

We zoom into about 20 bacteria, which we know are very strongly associated with your gum disease, your decay, your bad breath. But actually we also look at the levels of good bacteria in your microbiome too. So we're looking at what probiotics you might need. We're looking at the ratio between good and bad bacteria.

Um, and then what's very unique about the test [01:10:00] is that we're looking at how the body's responding to that bacteria. So your host immune response and that is being looked at through genetic mutations and also virulence factors. So, um, one of the issues that I was having with the test was Saliva testing was that I would see two patients.

This was a couple of years ago I'd see two patients. They would both do an oral microbiome test and they would have exactly the same results But one would have terrible gum disease and the other one would be completely healthy and fine And so this is when I realized that it's not just bacteria that causes the disease and the problem But it's how your body's responding to that bacteria.

And if you are that pro inflammatory person, maybe you are You know, you have another autoimmune condition. You might be the one who reacts very aggressively, even to the smallest amount of bacteria, and you're at a much higher risk of gum disease, and we should be treating you more aggressively. Um, and it's not just that bad bacteria.

Yeah, and it's not just bad bacteria. Should all be killed if that's not the case because in some people bad bacteria is [01:11:00] actually okay And we should leave it alone and we shouldn't cause a problem, you know shift anything and everyone and the person's healthy So we identified, um about 10 or 12 genetic mutations which um can increase your risk of inflammation of gum disease of decay So there are genetic mutations that actually will make you have a sweet tooth.

So I have that one, unfortunately, unfortunately, um, and what that 

Dr. Brighten: does. Especially in London, like there's so many great spots. 

Dr. Sampson: I know it's the worst, but what that means is that I, um, I have a very high threshold of sugar, so I need a lot of sugar to feel satiated. compared to another person. On top of that, when I'm stressed out, um, I will run to sugar to make me feel better.

So some people will go and gamble, or they will, you know, have a vodka martini, and I'll go have a chocolate bar. And that is my, my stress release. Um, on top of that, we look at mutations that mean that your saliva might be more [01:12:00] acidic, or might be more alkaline, and that can also change your risk. Um, and so, and then all together we package all of that into, um, like, uh, risk scores.

So you get a score for gum disease, decay, bad breath, general inflammation, and then you get personalized treatment recommendations to rebalance your oral microbiome and get it back into a balanced state. 

Dr. Brighten: Oh, I love that. Um, and pH. So I think when people think pH, they think vaginas. Just so everybody knows, same tissue that lines your cheeks lines your vagina.

So there is some, there's some sharing going on in the body. Uh, you know, besides the bacteria floating around everywhere. But talk to us about pH. Why does that matter? 

Dr. Sampson: So, um, the pH is really important in your mouth or the saliva pH, because, um, if you have a very low pH, so you have an acidic saliva, then that means that you are at a higher risk of demineralization of your teeth and aka decay or cavities.[01:13:00] 

Um, so every time we eat sugar, our saliva will go down in pH and become more acidic. And, um, our saliva will then try and buffer it and neutralize it and get it back to a healthy state. Um, so this is what we call the Stefan's Curve or Steven's Curve. And so, If we constantly have sugar every kind of 30 minutes, then we don't let our saliva, um, get back to a neutral state.

The, it's, it takes too long and so it ends up just constantly being acidic and that's when you start getting cavities and, and decaying problems. 

Dr. Brighten: This is why dentists hate snacking culture. 

Dr. Sampson: Exactly, exactly. So it's not actually, we don't hate sugar. We hate how you eat the sugar. So I'm always saying to patients Like I said, I have a sweet tooth, but I'll eat all my sugar in one go.

I'll have my big bag of M& M's I know terrible, but i'll eat it all in one go and that will be me done The worst thing you can do is have a bag of M& M's and have one every 10 minutes Because that's when you're going to get the decay and the acidic taste saliva. On top of [01:14:00] that, people are genetically, um, having more acidic saliva than other people.

So if you're that person who already has this acidic saliva and then you snack, then the risk of you having decay is so much higher than the normal patient. 

Dr. Brighten: How do you correct that? If you have a low pH, which, so everybody, if you have a low pH, that's more acidic. How do you correct that, bring it back into balance?

So 

Dr. Sampson: there are some toothpastes that have bicarbonate soda, um, and that can help to, uh, neutralize it. So bicarbonate soda is very alkaline, so it'll get it back to a neutral state. Um, there's also things like chewing gums, um, and even mouthwashes, which would neutralize it. Um, if you are out and, you know, you don't know what to do, um, have a block of cheese.

So cheese is also very, um, alkaline and that will help as well. 

Dr. Brighten: Yeah, I love the cheese, you know, i'm like thinking like after dinner and france how they always have like the cheese tray and i'm like There's just some stuff that like cultures have been doing for a long time that I'm like [01:15:00] they didn't know but they knew they somehow knew Um, what's the name of the test called?

I don't think you said that 

Dr. Sampson: I did not I got so excited Telling you all about it. I love it. I'm here for it Um, so it's called oralis one. Um, and it's by my new company called ths lab Oralis 

Dr. Brighten: 1, I love that. Um, I'm gonna, like, I don't know, I'm a big alien fan, like the movies, Aliens, and it feels like, you know, Prometheus, Oralis 1 would be like a spaceship.

Like, I'm here for that naming as well. 

Dr. Sampson: I couldn't think of anything and that was the best I could do. So I was like, and then I'm hoping to do offshoots, like maybe down the line, we can do Mentalis 1 and, you know, other. 

Dr. Brighten: I like it. Um. But I have to say I'm awful at naming things as well. Like whenever I write a book, my publisher's like, surely you can have a better chapter name.

I'm like, surely you do not know me. I cannot like in my book, beyond the pill, I was like, [01:16:00] I'm going to call this like liver chapter. They're like, you cannot call it the liver chapter. I'm like, that's what it's about. They came up with like this birth control detox 101. And I was like, that sounds, that's catchy.

But then people were like, oh, you can't detox birth control. Like it's. Stays in your liver and stuff. I was like, oh, that's y'all are not reading the chapter All you did was read the title now. I know like I gotta name things better But I think you did a very good job with that. Thank you very much. We talked about Alzheimer's I want to talk about Parkinson's disease too because this is so Super fresh, uh, research that's been coming out.

So, uh, it's been shown the oral microbiome plays a significant role in Parkinson's disease. And I want to know what we've learned about this and what do you recommend for those who've been diagnosed or have a strong family history? So, um, 

Dr. Sampson: again, similar pathways. It's all about the, um, kind of inflammatory pathway that low grade chronic inflammation, um, and also again, some oral bacteria traveling [01:17:00] elsewhere and just causing that over active immune response.

Um, if you have been diagnosed with Parkinson's, um, I think one of the Biggest things to do is it's, it can become self perpetuating in the sense that if your Parkinson's gets to a point where you are unable to take care of your teeth and, you know, do your oral hygiene regime, then it will just get worse and worse.

Um, so simple things like switching to an electric toothbrush so that the toothbrush does all the work for you. Um, see, these are times where I do think that a high fluoride toothpaste is a good choice. Alternative. And why is that? Oh, you were gonna say it. Okay. . So sorry. Um, so just because I see the flip side where I see these patients, the issue is is that when, um, their neurodegenerative disorders get worse, they are unable to get to the dentist.

They're unable to brush their teeth. And so we need to arm them with the strongest things that we [01:18:00] can so that they don't get decay. And so in those patients, sometimes having quite a high fluoride toothpaste will protect their teeth from decay. Because no one's getting in there to brush their teeth, and they can't get to the dentist.

So it just delays them having problems, um, or reduces the risk of that. Uh, if you're on the early stages, then, um, you know, just taking care of your mouth as much as possible is really important. 

Dr. Brighten: Okay. Would waterpicks maybe be a good alternative for somebody who can't floss? 

Dr. Sampson: Yeah, that's a great idea. So you can use a waterpick.

Um, some people will also put stuff, instead of putting water in their waterpick, you can actually put some mouthwashes. So like super diluted hydrogen peroxide, um, is a really lovely one. Even salt water can be really good, but wash it out because the salt will crystallize in the tube. Um, um, but just watering down some mouthwashes can just be a really nice way of delivering, um, more antimicrobial solution to the mouth.

Dr. Brighten: When you say [01:19:00] mouthwashes, are we talking like Scope? Are we talking Listerine? 

Dr. Sampson: So, um, you know what, there are some not bad Listerines on the market now. Um, you know, we, I think they've always had quite a bad rep, um, and actually they've come out with some quite good alcohol free mouthwashes which have essential oils in them.

Um, so generally, I don't recommend that patients use mouthwash unless they have been prescribed or told by their dentist to do it. But the average person who has A healthy and happy mouth shouldn't be using mouthwash unless, uh, they, you know, had a really garlicky meal and they're about to kiss someone, you know, you should use it like perfume or aftershave kind of, but don't use it to treat anything.

For patients who have gum disease, I am a strong believer in using mouthwashes. Um, because you get that chemical antibacterial effect. Um, and then you also, you know, if you're brushing, you get the mechanical at the same time. And so, [01:20:00] uh, in my clinic, what we do is we'll do an oral microbiome test. We'll look at what bacteria you have high levels of.

And then we'll recommend a mouthwash, which is particularly good for your microbiome, based on what bacteria you have in your mouth. Um, you know, so it's, mouthwash gets a bad rep. It can ruin your microbiome if you do it incorrectly and you're just using anything from the store. But if you do it, use it correctly, it can be really, really effective.

Dr. Brighten: Okay, that's good to know. Um, the You've mentioned food multiple times. The things that have come up have been cheese. You've also mentioned chewing gum multiple times, so I wanna get into talking about food, but I think before we go there, chewing gum, there's been multiple, you know, times that you've said this.

Would you recommend that this is something people like after meals, people chew gum or multiple times a day? 

Dr. Sampson: Yeah, so it's, um, it's a beautiful way of increasing your saliva production. It just stimulates your, um, salivary glands. [01:21:00] And so if you have chewing gum, sugar free chewing gum after a meal, then it will increase the amount of saliva and that saliva is neutralizing.

So going back to that acid conversation we had, it will help to neutralize the saliva, um, and also wash away all of the food and bacteria, which is in your mouth. Straight after eating so I love a good sugar free chewing gum. It is really good. Okay, before we go to food one more thing 

Dr. Brighten: Essential oils. You mentioned that in Listerine.

Do you ever recommend essential oils in a water pick or diluted as part of a mouthwash? It's difficult. 

Dr. Sampson: Essential oils, um, you have to be very, very careful with the concentration. Um, because they can be extremely, um, aggressive on the gums and the inside lining of your mouth so To people who want to use it at home I would probably just say don't because the concentration is quite difficult, but you can get some ones [01:22:00] in stores Which have used essential oils at like a weak concentration and those are actually really good.

It's a really nice way of of helping balance the microbiome. 

Dr. Brighten: Okay. I wanted to clarify that because as you mentioned it, I was like, ooh, what if people leave this episode and then they're just like loading up their essential oils and I'm like, oh, I feel so bad. Okay, now we can shift gears into foods. I want to know, first and foremost, like, what are the most damaging foods for oral health?

We talked a little bit about sugar and it's the timing of sugar. If I understood you correctly, not the actual sugar itself, but are there foods that you're like, those can be highly problematic. What are the most damaging foods for our oral health? 

Dr. Sampson: Um, so your classics, your, your sugar is not too great. Um, like we said, it's more about frequency.

That's bad, not quantity necessarily. But with that being said, don't go any. Lots and lots of sugar, um, otherwise acidic foods. I think that's one [01:23:00] that, um, people don't realize. So, um, things like lemon water, your apple cider vinegar, um, your kimchi, your sauerkraut, they all are great for your body. and your general health, but they're not so great for, um, your mouth.

So it's not to say I eat 

Dr. Brighten: so much kimchi and sauerkraut. 

Dr. Sampson: Yeah, you know, and me too. Um, so what I've started to do is I try, I have more kefir because that's also really great. Um, and it's good for the mouth as well. And then if you are having your sauerkraut or your kimchi, um, just making sure that you're having it with something that can help neutralize the acid again.

Um, and then in terms of lemon water or your apple cider vinegar, if you're someone who likes to have that first thing in the morning, don't sip it, you know, throughout the day, but just have it either in a shot, um, or, you know, as quickly as possible through a straw, and then wait 30 minutes before you brush your teeth.

Um, otherwise you just grind all the lemon water into your [01:24:00] teeth and cause even more problems. 

Dr. Brighten: Oh, that's good to know. I have to tell you that recently my oldest has picked up the habit and he'll go sneak like a lemon wedge and try to put it in his teeth and his dad and I are like You're gonna ruin your teeth like you have no idea child Um And it is, it is like so stressful, but I've been like the only thing to mitigate it in the moments.

I'm like, swish your mouth with water, but now I'm like, queso, we're gonna get the cheese, we're gonna get the cheese, bring the cheese in. It works. So, acidic foods, sugar, uh, what about refined carbohydrates? 

Dr. Sampson: Um, same, I mean, similar in terms of sugar as well, so they, they have their own sugars, but also they can be very starchy, um, stick in your teeth, and they can also cause problems with the saliva as well.

So you can have, if you're having a lot of refined carbohydrates, um, then it will also alter the consistency of your saliva and how good it is, and that can impact and snowball and [01:25:00] cause problems, um, with decay and with gum disease and inflammation as well. 

Dr. Brighten: Interesting. And what about like. You know, people will say like, Oh, you should not have raisins.

You shouldn't have dried fruit. What do you think about dried fruit? 

Dr. Sampson: I mean, I love dried fruits, but they are a sneaky little culprit because whilst they are natural sugars, um, and you, you think that they're better, they're very sticky and they can get stuck in all the crevices of your teeth. Um, and actually cause a lot of problems.

So, um, unfortunately, uh, I mean, I also would say, you know, in moderation, don't have too much and that goes with also, uh, fruit juices and smoothies. Um, because they are also high in natural sugars. And that can cause a lot of problems and decay as well. Interesting. Are there 

Dr. Brighten: ways to 

Dr. Sampson: mitigate that? Um, so if you're having your juices, I guess, you know, trying to make them more, uh, savory, like your green juices are [01:26:00] better.

Celery and cucumber would be better than an orange and carrot juice. Um, if you are still going that or if you have kids and you're giving them apple juice, um, you know, again, it's, it's about the frequency. So making sure they're not sipping it throughout the day. Okay. They have maybe one box through a straw and then afterwards having water, um, to just help to rinse it all out basically.

Dr. Brighten: Mm hmm. Yeah. And even so with my kids, if we go out to brunch and they want fruit juice, we get water and then we spill it. We get a fruit juice with an extra cup and we split that and then we dilute it with water. Um, just to try to, it's not only about their teeth, it's also about my sanity. Um, because like low blood sugar needs like a cup of orange juice.

I mean, there's Hugo Verde that we try to do often, which is green juice. Um, but even that is still like, you know, they end up. Unstable little creatures because I swear I can never get the protein in fast enough. So, um, that's just [01:27:00] another thing that I do. I just like laughing at myself cause I'm like, literally, you know, the children who have like blood sugar issues and I always feel for them at a restaurant.

And you know, there's the adults who won't tolerate that they were once small. And then there's the adults who get it, who are like, Oh God. Yeah. I've been hangry before too. And then, we've all been there. You know, tried to grab something sweet real quick. Um, so we've talked about like cheese being good for our oral health.

What other foods can we incorporate for improving our oral microbiome? Um, 

Dr. Sampson: so things which are high in antioxidants, your, your blueberries, Your dark leafy greens are also great as well. Um, I, um, I, I love protein. So kind of building up on the protein side of things, because that's usually quite alkalizing as well.

Sounds silly, but hydrating. Um, most people don't drink enough water. So it's really, really important that we do that. Um, and then also supplementing with some nice prebiotics. [01:28:00] So, Um, like I said, kefir is my favorite one, um, but you can get them, you know, you can get lots of different types of prebiotics to help supplement the oral microbiome.

So nice. Yeah. Leafy greens are also the best. 

Dr. Brighten: Yeah, and there's water kefir for, we say kefir, where I come from, uh, for people that are lactose intolerant who are like, I can't do dairy of any kind. There's also coconut, um, kefir. I like the way you said it better though, kefir. Like, it sounds I just like it so much better.

Yeah, and then there's also lots of other probiotic foods, um, you know, that are available as well. I feel like the market is just exploding with that. And as I think about that, I'm like, oh, the kraut shots. Um, so I'm a fan of apple cider vinegar and doing sauerkraut shots, but I usually tell people to dilute it and then to rinse their teeth afterwards.

Um, but with that, I'm just wondering, you know, if people are, they're, they're like what can I eat to [01:29:00] actually replenish my microbiome? Are there foods? You know, we, we talk about the, the gut and we have the prebiotics that are in these fermented foods, but are there foods that people can eat that actually help populate the oral microbiome, or is it more about feeding what's there, keeping in check what's there?

Dr. Sampson: So, um, I recommend probiotics, like actual, you know, over the counter dental probiotics, which are extremely effective. Um, weirdly, there's a lot of patients who are born without certain good bacteria in their mouth. Um, and so those types of patients will, they need to supplement it from somewhere. And that's where having a good probiotic is really important.

Um, if you are just trying to kind of support your oral microbiome, um, something which is quite interesting is, uh, manuka honey and propolis. So propolis is a really wonderful, um, kind of ingredient. It's the raw [01:30:00] form of honey. Before it becomes honey, um, I love it for my immune system. So I'm constantly having a few drops before a big flight or even every day.

To be honest with you at this point, it's winter and I'm starting to do it. Um, but it's weirdly very effective against porphyromonas gingivalis, which was the bacteria I was saying, which is associated with Alzheimer's. 

Dr. Brighten: Yeah, yeah. I'm, I'm like winning right now because Beekeeper is natural. Um, I always have them on lock.

Do you know that company? No, I don't. No. Oh my gosh. I met them like way back when, when they like first started. They're the loveliest founders. They have such a good heart and such a good integrity. But, um, they were like, we have this thing called Propolis. And most people have never heard of it. I'm like, I know Propolis.

Okay. Like I am, you know, part of my training is in, herbal medicine and like certainly propolis is part of that. It's one of the greatest things that we can be just doing like year, even year round, um, that supports your immune system without really any side effects. But they make, [01:31:00] um, they make, you might not like this, but they make lollipops and lozengers, but it's honey and they'll have zinc and vitamin D.

So a good way to like deliver it. I get their lollipops for my kids on planes. Um, because, uh, not, well, if I, or anybody knows. Equalizing pressure in your ears is really important. But also because I'm like, it's got zinc and it's got vitamin D and so it's just giving them a little more support of the things that their immune system needs to do its job.

But they also have propolis throat spray. I'm like running an ad for them right now. But they have like throat spray, they have all kinds of products that are really really wonderful But there's other companies that make propolis as well. Um that like i'm a i'm a huge fan So i'm like yay, so cutting down alzheimer's disease potentially You know, I, we can't make any claims here because we don't have, uh, the science to say, like, you know, absolutely, propolis will cut your Alzheimer's risk, but affecting that bacteria, it's just one more [01:32:00] step towards a positive microbiome in your mouth.

A hundred percent. Yeah. That was a little ranty. I was like, got so excited about propolis. No, because I'm like, I've got to get this saliva test done. Is it available in the U. S.? 

Dr. Sampson: Yeah, so we've actually been working hard on that. Um, and, uh, weirdly, we're getting more people in the U. S. wanting it than the U.

K. Yeah, because we don't have dental coverage. Like, we need you. 

Dr. Brighten: We need to be proactive in all of this. 

Dr. Sampson: Yeah, and so, um, yeah, we've made sure that it's international and anyone can buy it. 

Dr. Brighten: Okay, that's fantastic. And I'm like such a nerd that I'm like if I have that bacteria I am gonna sew just propolis it up and retest and see what happens.

So outside of food, what do you recommend? We've talked about gum. We've talked about certain toothpastes. We've we've talked about mouthwash. Are there any other things that you people that you recommend to people? Hmm. What about mouth breathing? Oh yeah. Thank you. . [01:33:00] Yeah, . Yeah. I'm like, if she doesn't say it, I'm gonna say it.

I want to talk about it. . 

Dr. Sampson: No, I nearly forgot. No. So mouth breathing. Um, it's, it's a funny one because, uh, a lot of dentists don't know, um, how bad mouth breathing can be for the, for the rest of the body. Um, anecdotally, uh, I, like I said, I attract certain types of patients and they're often. Uh, referred by their doctors or their nutritionists or functional medicine practitioners, and they, a lot of them have that classic, you know, they are low energy, they find it difficult to focus, um, they are usually maybe mildly depressed, a lot of them have suffered from long COVID issues as well, and lo and behold, most of them are mouth breathers.

Um, and so it's, there has been a lot of research to show that patients who breathe with their mouth open are at a higher risk of, um, you know, low focus, not being able to sleep properly, obstructive sleep apnea, um, and the list kind of goes on and on, and I think it's, it's far more than what we [01:34:00] think. Um, so if you do think you're a mouth breather, the ultimate solution is to actually fix the jaws and the reason that you're breathing.

You're breathing with your mouth open, so sometimes that can be from a muscular perspective, and that's where my functional therapist can be really important, and this is where my functional therapist can help guide, um, you to breathing properly with your nose. Is there a reason, you know, maybe it's your posture or the way that your neck is?

Um, that's making you breathe with your mouth open, or is it just a habit that you just learn from, you know, when you're a child? The other is actually seeing a, an orthodontist who, you know, has their head screwed on straight, and they are looking at, um, maybe if the teeth are not meeting properly, or the jaws are too far away from each other, then the lips will not be able to close at rest naturally, and therefore the lips will always be open, and that will cause you to breathe.

Breathe with your mouth open. So the, the, to actually fix the root cause would be either through a [01:35:00] myofunctional therapist and or an orthodontist as well, if you are concerned or you're like, Hmm, that sounds like a really expensive treatment or I don't really believe this girl. I don't know what she's saying.

Then you can mouth tape. I was going to ask you if you 

Dr. Brighten: like mouth taping. I do. 

Dr. Sampson: It, I'm not going to lie. It looks a bit weird. Um, you know, some people don't like the, the idea of, of taping their mouth closed. Um, and it's, there are some nicer ones on the market now, which are like pink and they look like lips, but it's still a bit, you know, it's, it's not the nicest, um, for some patients, but I use it as, a, um, a test.

So if these patients, um, mouth tape for a couple of weeks, particularly if they have like a wearable and they can track their sleep and their sleep is improving when they have mouth tape, um, then that might mean that they do need to see an orthodontist or a myofunctional therapist to sort the root cause out.

And if they don't want to do that, then they can obviously continue to mouth tape for as long as they want to. Um, but [01:36:00] we really do see massive improvements. My sister, she's an orthodontist, so, um, we work at our clinic. We have a myofunctional therapist, we have an orthodontist, and I obviously do all the microbiome stuff.

And we've actually started to do a few microbiome tests before and after orthodontic treatment. to see whether or not their oral microbiome is improving when their mouth is at rest and they're not breathing with their mouth open. And there's a huge improvement in their oral microbiome and the reduction in bad bacteria.

And that's just because, I mean, imagine you're breathing with your mouth open, all the stuff is just entering your, your mouth and you're swallowing it and you're breathing it. Of course, it's going to be causing problems. 

Dr. Brighten: Yeah, that's fascinating. There's a, for everybody, there's an episode with Dr.

Ludovico and I want everyone to go listen to it if they are a mouth breather. They have trouble sleeping, if they have trouble concentrating, if they notice that they have achy joints, a lot of the symptoms you listed [01:37:00] because he was sharing that in the research they have shown that people with ADHD have a higher propensity towards being mouth breathers, so, or having sleep apnea.

So not mouth breathers. Let me correct myself there. Having sleep apnea, but with sleep apnea people are You, most people are going to end up breathing through their mouth or gasping for air at some point. But that's so interesting with the wearable technology. I'm such a fan of wearables for that reason, because you can really see things.

So with sleep apnea, with mouthwash. Breathing, um, you'll also see heart rate and variability improvement, deep sleep improvement. Um, and the other thing is resting heart rate can even come down. There's been a lot of fascinating things that I've seen shift and change. So if people are like, I don't know about this girl and she's crazy or whatever, um, you're not, and there's science to back this up, but also what do you have to lose from improving your airway?

Improving how you oxygenate your [01:38:00] body, like, there's only benefits there. Um, I'm curious, what are your thoughts about processed food and jaw development? And, um, especially as we, you know, we see more and more children consuming processed food. 

Dr. Sampson: Um, so, uh, Weston Price, um, was a very interesting man, and he, Basically, uh, I don't know exactly the, the decade.

It was in the early 1900s. I want to see in the 1960s, maybe your fifties, but Western Price, um, he basically thought that there must be a reason why in some areas, um, kids have more, uh, developed jaws than in other areas. And so he basically traveled the world. And he found that, um, in certain, you know, there, there were some studies where there would be twins and one twin would be in a very Westernized and industrialized city.

And the other twin would be in a very, very, uh, you know, rural, uh, city where they're having, [01:39:00] um, no processed foods. They're just having very natural things. And the jaw development of both of these twins would be completely different. So the one who's having all these processed foods, would have a lot more crowding, so there wouldn't be enough space for their teeth to develop into their jaw.

Um, they would often not have their jaws closing properly, um, and therefore they would have a whole cascade of problems. And so this kind of opened the doors and the idea that actually, um, the way that we eat from an early age, um, can really impact our jaw development. And part of that's to do with, you know, how hard our food is.

Unfortunately, most of our food these days is processed and it's very soft, um, and therefore it's not helping to develop the jaws at a young age. And if you're not, you know, at a young age before about, you know, 13 ish, your jaws are very malleable. You can, you can really grow them. Um, you know, you can expand your jaws, et cetera.

Um, and so it's a, you should really make sure if you do have children that you're making them eat healthy. And you're not cutting it up [01:40:00] into tiny pieces and blending it all into soups and stews. You want them to eat hard foods so that their muscles develop and their jaws also develop as well. 

Dr. Brighten: When you say hard foods, what does that mean?

Dr. Sampson: Anything, chewy, hard food, steak. I mean, if you look at the caveman diet, um, I, I personally think if we can try and revert back to the caveman diet as much as possible, we probably have far less problems. And this is what Western Price was showing was that the moment we started introducing a more industrialized life where we had a consumer, you know, life and more processed foods, that's when you started seeing the crowding, uh, the lack of jaw development and also high amounts of decay as well.

Dr. Brighten: Okay. So hard food is not like a hard piece of candy. It is harder to chew food. Something that you have to chew over and over and over. Okay. I just wanted to differentiate that. Cause I didn't want people to be like, do I stick it in the freezer and then like crunch down on it? Like, I know I'm giving the benefit of the doubt that everybody here is very, very clever, but I [01:41:00] just want to make sure that we are always clear.

I have a question for you. That comes up a lot when I close the door in my office and people ask, can oral sex change your microbiome of your mouth? Usually they say things like, can it give me cavities? Can it make me have that breath? Like, can it, can it do bad things? But what they're talking about is alterations in the microbiome and the pH.

Um, 

Dr. Sampson: Yes, it can. So yes, oral sex on hand. Dun, dun, dun. Yeah. Um, but not in a bad way, to be honest with you. So, you know. Okay, okay. Um, I'm not the devil. You guys can go do what you like. Enjoy yourselves. Whatever floats your boat. It's um, but it does, um, just in a short term, change your oral microbiome. Um, essentially immediately after oral sex.

Yeah. 

Dr. Brighten: Okay. And, uh, you know, is there anything that can be done, like damage that's irreversible that people should be aware of? 

Dr. Sampson: Not that I'm [01:42:00] aware of, no. So from the research I've seen, there are no negative impacts to the oral microbiome. And like I said, it's, it's quite transient. So, um, for a long term impact on the oral microbiome, it would, you'd have to be doing Going, you'd have to, the frequency is important.

Let's leave it at that. 

Dr. Brighten: You're like, how do I remain a doctor and say all the 

Dr. Sampson: things that need to be said? So frequency is important at that point. Um, but the only thing I would say is, um, uh, herpes. So you can, if you, if there, if you have genital, um, herpes, Then that can travel up and you can have oral herpes as well and vice versa.

So if that is the case, then, you know, maybe hold off for a while. And how about HPV? And same with HPV as well. So, um, the, well, actually quite an interesting study, but, um, they did a study a long time ago, um, and what they found was that [01:43:00] the, uh, this is where I, I struggle, excuse me. Um, so, um, what they found was that, um, if you were to swallow following your, uh, oral sex, uh, situation, then actually, um, there was in a reduction in your, um, oral cancer.

Yeah. So you reduce oral cancer if you swallowed and to do presumably proteins. 

Dr. Brighten: Yeah, or presenting to the immune system in the gut, I wonder. And the immune system being like, I know you, I see you, I will destroy you. That's so interesting. Um, making a case for swallowing. Some people are going to be very delighted by this information, Dr.

Samson. I know. See, I'm not 

Dr. Sampson: the devil. Go 

Dr. Brighten: do what you like. I don't think I've sent you the book, Is This Normal, this book I wrote. The book, um, but my latest book, uh, is the whole first half of it is all about sex because it's all the [01:44:00] questions that people ask me, but they're like very ashamed to ask me and I'm like, why don't we just put this like all in a book?

Anyhow, I talk all about, uh, swallowing and you know, whether or not that can make you sleepier or, you know, help with nutrient status and all that. So, uh, you're in good company. Okay, last topic I want to get into. You brought up COVID. You were the first dentist to make the connection between gum disease and COVID, and this is a story I want to hear.

Dr. Sampson: Uh, yeah, that, um, again started quite a big journey for me. So, um, during COVID, um, dental practices were shut down, and anyone who knows me will know that I can't really sit still for longer than like 10 minutes. So I was kind of losing my mind. Um, and I decided to write research. Um, I was obsessed, you know, they had made, um, all research open access.

So I was on PubMed constantly just learning about everything. Those were the days. Yeah, but it was all [01:45:00] open access. As in the 

Dr. Brighten: access to research, everybody, not like COVID was great. It was not great, but, but for the first time to have all that access. Okay. It was nice because I 

Dr. Sampson: felt like there was a community.

I felt like everyone was trying to contribute and, you know, they're all putting their research in there. And so I was the way it should be exactly. Yeah. So I was, I was refreshing and reading everything and there was never anything about the mouth and there I was, you know, sitting at home knowing that a lot of patients did need to go to the dentist, but we were not seen as being critical.

I guess, needed or important enough to keep our doors open. 

Dr. Brighten: Again, again, this is another, probably it was another negative message about the importance of oral health sent to the public. To be like, oh yeah, they're not necessary healthcare providers. Uh, I think that was a huge, um, flaw. One of the many mess ups.

In an, in an unforeseen event that nobody was prepared for. 

Dr. Sampson: No, a hundred percent. And to be honest with you, we're still seeing the consequences in the UK right now, the [01:46:00] waiting list for seeing a dentist in some places is two years. Um, there are, you know, it's really, really bad because we were closed down for so long.

Um, so I was kind of, I was a bit annoyed because I thought, you know, There, there is a strong connection between the mouth and the rest of the body. And so when I was looking at all the research, I thought that there, uh, all of the risk factors that were increasing the risk of COVID complications were also very similar to the risk factors for periodontal disease.

So I wrote a lovely long paper on it. It got picked up by the British Dental Journal, and basically what I was saying was that patients who have periodontal disease, um, all exhibit the same risk factors that patients who suffer from COVID complications have. And that's to do with, again, those same complicated, same pathways, the hyper inflammatory response, the, um, vasodilation, so the blood vessels not being able to dilate and constrict, and then just super high levels of bacteria in your mouth traveling elsewhere to the rest of the body.

You know, [01:47:00] maybe on a normal day, you'd be okay. But when you're suffering from COVID, you're going to be, um, you're going to be at a much higher risk of bacterial superinfection. So you can breathe in all that oral bacteria, and then that can cause you superinfection. So that kind of got picked up and it blew up.

And lots of people got published by the British Dental Journal, The Lancet, it got really, really big. And it opened doors for me to do some research with some universities and hospitals. And so we went into, um, ICUs or emergency rooms, um, where these patients were suffering from the worst COVID complications And we weren't able to touch them So what we had to do is we had to collect their saliva and this is where my saliva testing journey really started So we collected their saliva and we got this beautiful snapshot of what was going on in that patient's mouth at that moment in time Just through their saliva And what we did find was that patients who did have periodontal disease or gum disease were nine times more likely to suffer from COVID complications than those who didn't.

What we [01:48:00] also found was that one of the biggest causes of death from COVID was not COVID itself. Not many people died from the virus. They actually died from a bacterial super infection. Um, and so, So, uh, this opened the doors to a lot of research looking into actually, when you look at the, um, autopsies of COVID sufferers, a lot of them had oral bacteria sitting in their lungs, um, which shouldn't have been there.

And those patients had died from pneumonia or chest infections. Um, so it, yeah, it opened a lot of research and it meant that we actually were able to get the results. back into our dental practices and show people that dentistry is important and even having a hygiene reduces your bacterial load. It improves your, um, your immunity and your inflammatory levels as well.

Dr. Brighten: This It's such fantastic information because as everybody has been talking about, you know, because it's, COVID's not gone, it's not [01:49:00] going away. I have yet to hear anybody talking about the importance of oral health in preventing the complications of COVID. I do want to ask you, there are many people who were against masks.

For various reasons, but one thing they would argue is it ruins your oral microbiome. Have you seen any studies on that? Have you found that in your own practice to be true? Uh, wearing a mask? Yes. That it ruins your, your oral microbiome. 

Dr. Sampson: Well, then I must have the worst oral microbiome in the world. I 

Dr. Brighten: know!

Like, 

Dr. Sampson: I mean, I wear a mask for 12 hours a day. And I mean, I know it's not the COVID FFP3 proper full blown mask. But, um, no, I haven't seen any research to do with that. What I did see was, um, people having maybe topical like skin infections and, and things like that. Because the, it was humid under there.

But, um, [01:50:00] no, I haven't seen them. 

Dr. Brighten: Yeah. Well, perfect. Well, thank you so much for this conversation. I do feel like I can definitely, we could talk forever. I think we should definitely have another conversation where we just break down all this, all these things that you've learned about COVID. Cause I feel like we just scratched the surface.

I. Really, really appreciate your time. You've spent so much of it generously sharing so much knowledge and information with people. Where can they find you if they'd like to follow you, hang out? We'll link everything in the show notes as well. 

Dr. Sampson: Um, so on Instagram, I'm at Dr. Victoria Sampson. If you are local and you want to come to our clinic, it's called the health society in London.

Um, or Oralis One, which is the oral microbiome test. 

 

Dr. Brighten: Fantastic. Well, thank you again. I really appreciate your time.

Dr. Sampson: Thank you so much for having me.