The Loneliness Epidemic Is Worse Than You Think | Neuroscientist Dr. Ben Rein Explains

Ben Rein: [00:00:00] 300,000 people who are super isolated are 50% more likely to die by any cause. Human beings are wired for social connection. So when people are isolated, there is a chance that men are more vulnerable. It increased the risk of death by 78% and women, it was only 57%. 

Dr. Brighten: True or false, online friendships affect the brain the same way in-person ones do.

Narrator: That one's gotta be. False 

Dr. Brighten: science shows that loneliness can be as toxic and unhealthy as 15 cigarettes a day. So why does our brain need friends? 

Narrator: Dr. Ben Ryan 

Dr. Brighten: is an award-winning neuroscientist and author of Why Brains Need Friends 

Narrator: whose research and teaching Explore the Biology of Social Connection.

Dr. Brighten: As Chief Science Officer of the Mind Science Foundation, Stanford lecturer and Science communicator to over a million followers, 

Ben Rein: he bridges cutting edge neuroscience with real world impact. 

Dr. Brighten: What do you think are some of the big things that people are getting wrong, especially when it comes to like the cause of autism?

Ben Rein: 40 to 60% [00:01:00] of autism cases are related to genetics. Mm-hmm. Then there are also environmental toxins, pate stress, maternal sickness during pregnancy, 

Dr. Brighten: the pandemic was non-consensual. What do you think happened to humans based on the research that you have in your book? Going through that kind of global isolation?

Ben Rein: The group that I am most concerned about the outcomes of this period is. 

Dr. Brighten: Welcome to the Dr. Brighten Show, where we burn the BS in women's health to the ground. I'm your host, Dr. Jolene Brighten, and if you've ever been dismissed, told your symptoms are normal or just in your head or been told just to deal with it, this show is for you.

And if while listening to this, you decide you like this kind of content, I invite you to head over to dr Brighten.com, where you'll find free guides, twice weekly podcast releases, and a ton of resources to support you on your journey. Let's dive in. Science shows that loneliness can be as [00:02:00] toxic and unhealthy as 15 cigarettes a day.

So why does our brain need friends? 

Ben Rein: Long ago when it came down to survival of the fittest? The best human for survival on earth is one that wants to be around others. Mm-hmm. One that actually feels joy and pleasure from being around others. And so our brains, thanks to evolution have, uh, social reward systems built in.

So we actually experience feelings of joy. You know, most people can kind of relate to this. You know, you, you go to hang out with friends and you come out afterwards and you're like, wow, that actually really improved my mood. I feel a lot better. Um, and there's a lot of research showing that that's true, that people feel better after socializing.

But what's really happening and when we socialize is our brains are releasing neurotransmitters that make us feel good and make us feel like we wanna come back and do it again. Dopamine. Mm-hmm. Right? It's reinforcing. Uh, and so yes, socializing as is associated with the release of, of dopamine reinforcement, oxytocin, which is, um, you know, the [00:03:00] social bonding and serotonin, which is also, you know, related to mood.

Uh, but it turns out that actually oxytocin is like the first thing. It's like the first domino that falls, that knocks over the other two dominoes of serotonin and dopamine. 

Dr. Brighten: We're gonna get into it today. Yeah. As we talk in this conversation of loneliness, if someone's feeling isolated right now, what is that doing to their brain?

What do we actually know? And, you know, you're probably gonna have like, and we don't know big question mark as well. 

Ben Rein: Yeah, well true. I, I can't tell you what we do know though. So when people are isolated, because what I said before that we are a social species and so we, we prefer to be around each other when we're not around each other.

That in an ancient world was a big problem because if you're on your own in an ancient world where you know, you, your likelihood of dying basically goes straight up. And so the brain needs some sort of mechanism to say, Hey, this is a problem. You should find your community again. And so the way this basically plays out [00:04:00] is that being isolated is a form of stress.

Mm-hmm. When people are, when humans are isolated, they start, start to show, uh, rises in cortisol and. Basically triggers the HPA response, stress response. Short-term stress can be a good thing. Um, because when we are stressed for a short period, whether it's from isolation or stress at work, or a saber two tiger presenting itself to battle, uh, our bodies kind of prepare for the challenge.

And so we can, you know, it could be anti-inflammatory. We can have all these great benefits that it changes in the brain as well with like receptors going to the outside of neurons like ready to take in new signals. It's really fascinating. But then when the stress stays for a long time. Mm-hmm. So for example, if we are isolated for an extended period, that adaptive stress response becomes maladaptive, becomes unhealthy.

And so in long-term stress, what we often see is chronic inflammation because cortisol is anti-inflammatory. I know that's confusing. You just said it's causes inflammation, but it's anti-inflammatory. Well, with [00:05:00] chronic stress, the body's tissues become sort of desensitized mm-hmm. To the cortisol's ability to normally turn down inflammation.

So in late terms, basically the, the one of the body's anti-inflammation systems is out of order. And so what happens is this rise in inflammation that can affect all the, these tissues in the body, including the brain. And so the stress response itself over the long term. Probably has a, you know, direct relationship with the mood deficits we see.

So isolated people are, uh, at higher risk of anxiety and depression, also suicidality. 

Dr. Brighten: Mm-hmm. 

Ben Rein: But as far as the health detriment, right? People are at higher risk of dementia, diabetes, heart disease, um, stroke, all sorts of, obviously things you don't want to happen. 

Dr. Brighten: Yeah. 

Ben Rein: And it, it's not all necessarily related to this inflammation, but a fair amount of it probably is.

And there's this one study that, that kind of paints this picture really well [00:06:00] that I, I love, I think it's such a fascinating study. So it's, it's in mice, uh, Dr. Louis McCullough's lab at University of Houston. They were studying stroke. And so they would induce a stroke in the mice by basically restricting an artery.

Blood does not go to the brain for some amount of time, then they allow the artery to start flowing again. And so the blood returns. And so what you have is this very, like, scientifically controlled stroke, right? Mm-hmm. Like let's say 30 seconds, there's no blood. And so, you know, it's, it's controlled so well 'cause this is science.

We want to be, everything should be replicable. And so, uh, what you would expect is that all of these mice that go through this procedure would have the exact same. Damage. Mm-hmm. In the brain, the exact same, like severity of stroke. And that's generally true, but they found that certain mice had much bigger, more severe strokes and they didn't know why.

And so they started looking back in their notes and what they realized is that those mice that had worse strokes were living in single housing. They were isolated. And so even though they had gone through the exact same stroke 

Dr. Brighten: mm-hmm. 

Ben Rein: [00:07:00] The damage that they showed in the brain was much worse. I mentioned that inflammation might be a key problem.

What they, what they found is that when they suppressed those inflammatory signals in the brains of these mice and then gave them a stroke, the stroke was the normal size again. So it seems like when these mice were isolated, they were experiencing more inflammation, neuroinflammation, they experienced a stroke, and now because the brain's not functioning properly and there's all this inflammation in the way, there's more dead cells.

And so the severity is worse. You know, the mice were more likely to die, they were less likely to show recovery after. And so now if we take this outta mice and we apply it to humans, which, you know, you shouldn't really do that, but it, it's the similar, a similar context, right. I just mentioned people are at higher risk of heart disease, you know, dementia, all these conditions.

Well, if the body's tissues are not functioning properly and if there's all this inflammation, it makes us much less resilient to challenge. Mm-hmm. And to damage. And so like. You know, if you, people who have a stroke, when they exit the hospital and they go [00:08:00] into single housing where they're not with others, they're much more likely to have severe outcomes or have another stroke.

And it kind of makes sense when you think, okay. Yeah. Chronic stress response being isolated that we may not even really perceive, which is why I'm just kind of so concerned about it has all this like underlying quiet, like whispered health effects on our longevity, uh, that can play out, you know, in any really way.

Dr. Brighten: Mm-hmm. Okay. Before everyone spirals, right? Because we're sitting here hearing this being like, oh my gosh, uh, there's all these adverse health outcomes. And we know women are at very high risk for cardiovascular, um, disease and events as they enter into menopause, higher risk of possible like hip fractures.

And we already have covered so many times on this podcast, the, you know, mortality rates, which are, they just are not great. When you have to talk about them and you look at like, what's the [00:09:00] future when we start to pair this with what you're saying now, it feels even more kind of doomsday. Mm-hmm. So before people start to spiral, what's like an easy way that they can start to mitigate some of this 

Ben Rein: socialize?

You know, this is the thing that I like hate about speaking about this topic, is that it naturally leads to this conversation like, what can we do, right? Mm-hmm. And it's like, so 

Dr. Brighten: why do you hate that? 

Ben Rein: Uh, I hate that the. That there's no like, well, here's a special tip that like you Oh, okay. Thought about.

Right. It's like, no, just interact with people. Yeah. Um, the other thing too is that, you know, people tend to have a lot of like, self-imposed barriers to interaction. Mm-hmm. A ton. So many, I mean, just think about the last time someone invited you out and you felt, you know, last minute. You're like, oh gosh.

Like, do I really wanna leave the house? Like my TV's calling my name, the couch looks comfortable, my favorite blanket's right there. On the other hand, this conver, this interaction might just be draining. I'm so tired already, right? Mm-hmm. Like, you could think of a million reasons why you shouldn't go.

And sometimes we, [00:10:00] you know, fall prey to that and, uh, and that that force wins. And we ended up not going. But number one, I think that if, if people understood, uh, the actual significance of interacting for our brain health, then in those moments it wouldn't be such a difficult decision. 'cause you know, it's like people understand sleep.

They understand why it's good for them. People understand diet, people understand exercise. They may not understand the molecular mechanisms. Of course, I'm sure most people don't. But people have an awareness that it's two in the morning, you're scrolling on your phone, you gotta get up for work at eight.

And it's like, well, if I go to sleep now I only get six hours, I should probably sleep because I know I'm gonna feel worse. Mm-hmm. But I don't think people have that. About socializing? I think that we view socializing as like a treat for ourselves or like a, you know, it's a leisurely activity. Sleep is not necessarily a leisurely activity.

It's something we do for our wellness. Exercise is for our wellness. Eating healthy diet is for our wellness, but people don't view socializing as a part of [00:11:00] this wellness, wellness habits. And so I, I wish people started to view it that way. And so, yeah, on the first hand I'm hoping that maybe people can kind of reframe the way they view interacting.

And then on the second hand, I'm hoping people will also understand, um, what I just mentioned, that we, we genuinely do impose barriers. I'm not speaking about that as like anecdotally as a human, although I can relate to that. I'm speaking about that as a scientist. Mm-hmm. That there's a ton of research showing that basically humans miscalculate like a ton of different stuff when it comes to interaction.

We expect that people are gonna reject us if we try to have a conversation with them. We expect that if we give someone a compliment that they're gonna think it's weird. We expect that if we stay in conversation longer, the conversation is just gonna continuously get worse. Mm-hmm. Uh, and we, we also underestimate our social abilities.

You know, people think that they're pretty bad at socializing when they're actually not. We think people like us less than they really do. Like there are all of these reasons why [00:12:00] we are anxious about socializing. And that often translates to, I'm just gonna sit on the couch and not go out. On the second point, I'm hoping that people might start to think and, or people might start to understand that it's normal to feel that way and that like all human beings feel this way, these are like scientifically documented phenomena that you will think, yeah, you know what, if I go out and hang out with these people tonight, I'm probably not gonna feel good.

But like, that's statistically more likely than not to feel that way. But in, in reality, when you do go and you interact with people, you feel a lot better afterwards. Mm-hmm. So, I mean, the answer is socializing more. Um, I think we also, gosh, I just have so much to say on this. I mean, the, this entire rest of this podcast, we got 

Dr. Brighten: time.

I could just 

Ben Rein: go on and on about this topic, but, 

Dr. Brighten: and you know, I wanna say like what you are bringing up is the neurodivergent experience on, um, what so many [00:13:00] people with like A-D-H-D-O-C-D, um, autism like experience. But what I'm hearing from you is the research is like every brain experiences this. 

Ben Rein: Yeah, yeah.

I mean, we care about where we fall in our social environments a lot. Mm-hmm. Right. And some people care a lot more, some people experience like genuine diagnosable social anxiety, but we all experience some level of anxiety about are people going to like us. Mm-hmm. And you know, again, I I, I hate to harp too much on the evolutionary perspective, but I, you know.

This is just the way I view the world. I think that you can find a lot of explanations for things by looking back a long time ago what life was like when our brains evolved. And in an, an ancient world, being well-liked and being accepted by your group was super important. Mm-hmm. Because if you failed to do that, and if you were super obnoxious and unlikable and everybody hated you, they would might, you know, feed you to the predators.

Right. Or let you, you know, not get, get you food. And it's important to have good standing with your [00:14:00] groups for your survival. And so it's normal for the human brain to care a lot about what other people think and to not want to be rejected and to not, you know, uh, you know, have bad interactions. And what I, what I also think people are, um, kind of aware of is that we've lost a lot of social interaction over the last few years.

You know, we have this concept of this loneliness epidemic that the US Surgeon General announced a couple years ago. And of course, we went through, we all went through COVID and dealt with that and how that felt. But I think what we may not be recognizing is that we've lost a lot of these, like, micro interactions in our lives.

Mm-hmm. There are so many places where human contact is being replaced with convenient automation. You know, you, there's pretty much anything like, name, any task you can now do it. On your phone, whether that's, you know, touring a house that you [00:15:00] would normally go and talk to the real estate agent, you can just look through it on Zillow.

Dr. Brighten: Mm-hmm. You 

Ben Rein: wanna order groceries through Instacart instead of going to the store and looking around and talking to people and talking to the cashier. I mean, going to the bank, you know, you call the bank, it's a robot. You go to the bank, it's an ATM. There's just so many places where we used to get this, like tiny little bits of sort of community reassurance, right?

Mm-hmm. Like you go to the grocery store and you're cashing out and you have a really nice one minute interaction with the cashier, and you walk out and you're like, wow, you know, that person was really nice. That may seem insignificant, but it's not because A, that interaction just did something to your brain.

It made you feel better, right? It triggered, it was a, it was a good little exercise for your brain, but also that interaction reassured your sort of place in your community. And it gave your brain that that pleasant little hit of these people around you are safe and friendly and are allies. And that's also really pleasant for the brain.

And, and you know, [00:16:00] when we replace that constantly with, with social media and apps and all these things, and then the content that we're consuming on social media is often the worst of humanity. What happens to our sense of belonging, right? Mm-hmm. And our sense of community, and I don't know, I mean, as a person who uses social media often as a.

Content creator making videos about neuroscience. I'm not a fan of, of social media. And it, and I hate when I'm scrolling and, you know, I see a video of something terrible, right. Like a, a Karen experience or, you know, something like that. Mm-hmm. Where someone's treating someone else like, shit, pardon my language.

And then you see another video that's like, oh my gosh, like, look at these two making up. You know, it's like supposed to be, uh, what's the, there's a term for that. Like, um, it's like love core or something like, I don't know, there's like a term for like, there's 

Dr. Brighten: all kinds of terms. And I have to say I'm at an age where I'm no longer cool.

That I do not know all these terms. Me neither. That isn't 

Ben Rein: a word for this. For like positive content that makes you feel good. 

Dr. Brighten: Yeah. 

Ben Rein: And [00:17:00] like nine outta 10. 

Dr. Brighten: Oh, like puppy core? 

Ben Rein: Yeah. Yeah. Like something like that. But like with humans and like nine times outta 10, I watch the video, I'm like, this is 100% fake.

Dr. Brighten: Yeah. 

Ben Rein: Like, these are actors and I, and I know they're actors and it makes me feel even more pissed off at mm-hmm. Humankind because it's like, what have we done that the content we scroll and watch is people pretending to be nice to each other for financial gain because they can get more followers and views on social media and we're farming kind interactions.

Mm-hmm. For the purpose of, of entertaining others on their phone. It's like, it's so dystopian where we are currently at and oh gosh, I don't know. It, it makes me upset. It all makes me very upset. 

Dr. Brighten: Well, we're gonna get into more social media stuff. I wanna ask you, we're gonna play two truths and a lie with the audience, so I'm gonna.

Give you three statements and then we'll let everybody go to YouTube. Guess in the comments, which one you think is a lie, and we'll give them some time to answer. We'll come back and do a reveal. So number one is having strong friendships can lower your risk of [00:18:00] early death more than exercise. Number two is online friendships affect the brain the same way as in-person ones do.

And number three is chronic loneliness raises stress, hormones and inflammation. So I think the audience already got some hints on that. They can go leave that comment. And what I wanna ask you is, well, they're doing that. What is something that would shock people to hear about the impact of social isolation on our ability to recover from something like a heart attack?

Ben Rein: Hmm. This question makes me think of a study that I, in, in the process of writing my book, which is about this topic. Um, I read so many studies where I was like, first off, I didn't know that even as a scientist working in this field. And second, that's unbelievable. And one of those studies was looking at cancer patients and they were looking at colorectal cancer patients, specifically in, in the us and they found that.

Patients who were married [00:19:00] were 28% less likely to die from cancer. 

Dr. Brighten: Mm. 

Ben Rein: And 28% is a pretty strong number. Well, it's even more impressive when you recognize that that's actually a higher number than the likelihood of surviving from taking using chemotherapy. Mm-hmm. 

Narrator: So 

Ben Rein: actually it was a, being married was a stronger predictor of survival than chemotherapy.

That doesn't mean that chemotherapy doesn't work. Of course, the people who survived and were married, part of the reason they were much more likely to survive is 'cause their partners were encouraging them to get the finest level of care they could, which incorporates chemotherapy. But I think this, this reveals something else too, because it's not all chemo.

It's, there's something else about being connected and what a lot of people don't recognize. Just like you said, melatonin is an antioxidant. Oxytocin is super good for the body. It's actually been called nature's medicine by some researchers because it has all these unbelievable benefits. It's, uh, you know, anti-inflammatory neuroprotective, it can maybe reduce some social stress and anxiety.[00:20:00] 

It is associated with immune function. It can strengthen bones, actually Bones express oxytocin receptors. Super interesting. 

Dr. Brighten: That's awesome. I've never heard that. Who 

Ben Rein: knew? Right? Yeah. That, that was, that's incredible. That I learned. I'm 

Dr. Brighten: like more orgasms for everyone. 

Ben Rein: Right, exactly. Yeah. And so, right, like when you think about, I mean, yeah, sex, sexual contact, oxytocin goes up for sure.

But. Just in general. I mean, there are certain relationships in life that are characterized by higher levels of oxytocin, and they are romantic partnerships and parent child bonds. Mm-hmm. So 

Dr. Brighten: what about pet bonds? 

Ben Rein: Those also trigger oxytocin. Mm-hmm. But those two I just mentioned are like, they're like a level above.

Okay. So 

Dr. Brighten: they're like the big boost, like the big hit. Yeah. And, and my little dog cuddling me, that's like a little hit. 

Ben Rein: Yeah. I mean, I don't think anyone's ever like directly compared those like quantifiably say, but yeah, I mean, I'm 

Dr. Brighten: gonna measure my blood, cuddle my husband. You should cuddle my dog, cuddle my kids.

What happens? That 

Ben Rein: actually, that would be pretty interesting. And you know, cuddle a friend too, right? Throw friendship in there and Yeah. [00:21:00] Because you know, it's really important to be, to be bound familially, right? Like oxytocin is, it's like, I call it social glue, right? People think of it love hormone and all this.

But uh, to explain something I mentioned at the very beginning, oxytocin's, the big domino knocks over serotonin and dopamine. So that three part system is what drives social reward. 

Dr. Brighten: Mm-hmm. 

Ben Rein: It's what makes us feel good. It makes what makes us want to come back for more interactions. And so if in this interaction, my brain and body are releasing tons of oxytocin.

It's gonna be rewarding, it's gonna tell me this interaction, this person is super, super rewarding, makes me feel great. I wanna spend more time with this person. Mm-hmm. That's why when you're falling in love in the early stages, like all you wanna do is hang out with that person. And when you have a child, all you wanna do is be be near that child, but you don't really get that necessarily for friends.

Right? Like, it feels good to be around them, but you're not like obsessed with their presence. Mm-hmm. And so, you know, the brain, when you're releasing all that oxytocin is telling you, being around this [00:22:00] person is, is productive. It's rewarding. It's like finding that field of vegetables, right. That's gonna like keep you alive.

And so when we're in position to mate, and, you know, and sorry, that's so like scientific sound, I guess it is a 

Dr. Brighten: very scientific way to put it, but that's okay. Yeah. Our audience can hang and 

Ben Rein: Yeah. And then I'm thinking of it as like a evolutionary perspective, right? Like when you're, when you are find a romantic partner and you have the potential to reproduce also scientific term, but you can have kids, that's like the best thing possible.

That evolution loves that, right? Mm-hmm. The, the thing that we are all here on earth to do from the through the eyes of evolution is to survive and reproduce so that our species stays here. So when you meet someone that you love and you can make children, then. That oxytocin keeps you super healthy so you can make children.

And then when the child gets here, that oxytocin, that nature's medicine keeps you super healthy so that you can successfully raise the child and allow them to survive. And so when you think about the, the cancer patients who are more likely to survive if they had a [00:23:00] romantic partner or, or they're married, kind of makes sense.

It's like there's all these benefits of oxytocin circulating and you know, not just in the context of cancer, but in for the average person. I mean, there's a reason why isolated people, sorry, this is gonna sound really dramatic and scary, but certain studies have shown with like 300,000 people a good number, that people who are super isolated are 50% more likely to die by any cause.

That doesn't, that's huge. I mean, that doesn't mean that like, you know, if you take two people, like this person's gonna die this year, right? Like mm-hmm. It's, it's tracking over the course of time, over the course of like a decade that study was, and looking at all different causes of death. But it makes sense if you have this amazing sort of healing hormones circulating in your body at all times, or if you don't, you're gonna be much less vulnerable to things like heart attacks if you do have that circulating.

And so mm-hmm. The presence of, of people we love is a very important thing when it comes to, um. Longevity and just maintaining a healthy body. [00:24:00] 

Dr. Brighten: I wanna get to the two truths and a lie, but something that came up when you talked about the cancer study, the question for me is, did they look at genders? So you said being married is important, but I'm wondering have there been any studies that looks at, like if the male partner, so speaking in a heterosexual couple, the male partner gets cancer, they're more likely to survive if, if they have a wife.

Uh, is it the same when you flip it, when it's reversed? Um, or have they even looked at that? 

Ben Rein: That's a good question. I, I don't remember them looking at that. Mm-hmm. The one study that you just made me think of, um, there is a chance that men are more vulnerable to the health effects of isolation. 

Dr. Brighten: Mm-hmm. 

Ben Rein: Um, specifically in older people, the study I'm thinking of is people over 65, they were looking at the sort of mortality, risk of isolation.

Same thing. How is being isolated gonna make you more likely to die? 

Dr. Brighten: Yeah. 

Ben Rein: And it is, it's especially bad in older people and in men, it increased the risk being isolated, increased the risk of death by [00:25:00] 78%. Mm-hmm. And in women it was only 57%. 

Narrator: Yeah. 

Ben Rein: So, slightly different angle, but. There probably are sex differences in, in terms of how we react to isolation.

And another really important point too, is that one thing I'm worried about when I talk about this is that people are gonna hear this message and they're gonna just be like, okay, well I'm going to socialize a hundred percent of the time. I'm going to always surround myself with people every night after work.

I'm gonna see friends even to the point of exhaustion. But that's not really the right way to go about it. I, I, it's important for everyone to understand that we are all different, we all exist somewhere on this continuum from being really introverted to being super extroverted. And depending on where you fall on that continuum, your like social needs will be different.

And so overs, saturating yourself with interaction is not necessarily a good approach or a healthy approach. Mm-hmm. If you top out, when you reach that point where it's too much and you [00:26:00] really just want to be alone, that's perfectly fine to be alone. There's nothing wrong with that. So, you know, we're talking about like sex differences and, you know, I'm thinking about individual differences because there's, there's, it'll be wrong to say that we should all maximize our isol or maximize our interaction for the sake of, uh, our wellbeing.

'cause we all kind of have different size social batteries. 

Dr. Brighten: I think about this in the context of like, you don't overcharge devices because then the battery burns out faster. So yeah, top up, reach your, reach, your, reach, your point. And don't feel like you need to overdo it. So let me ask you, we're gonna go true or false on these two truths and a lie.

So true or false, having strong friendships can lower your risk of early death more than exercise alone. 

Ben Rein: I wouldn't be surprised if that one's true. 

Dr. Brighten: Mm-hmm. Yeah. I think like the, the point of this one is really for people to understand is that health is a holistic endeavor. Often we think if I just control my diet, if I just exercise, but the community component, it has [00:27:00] equal weight.

Yeah. In terms of our, I think you've presented so far enough studies that I'm like sitting here being like, hang out with friends even when you don't want to, uh, at all. Um, just being neurodivergent, I'm the person that's like, I say yes to an invite and then it comes to the time and I'll sometimes even drive there.

I'll park and I'll be like, I ain't got it in me. I gotta go. I gotta go. And I've had friends that are like, I saw you outside my house. I'm like, oh no, I know. But like, I just, uh, and before I figured out that I was autistic, before I got diagnosed, I'm like, I don't know what's wrong with me. I just don't only have the energy to like have a conversation.

I don't know what's going on. And then I'm like, oh, masking check. Okay. So number two is online friendships affect the brain the same way in person ones do. 

Narrator: That one's gotta be false. 

Ben Rein: Well. You 

Dr. Brighten: just talked about it in your book. Yeah. 

Ben Rein: Well, you came up with these points. That one's definitely false. Let's go dude.

Dr. Brighten: That's the tricky thing is that there's the, there's like what you said and how you said it in your book. Yeah. Yeah. And then there's how I ask it. I think we're like having our [00:28:00] own little neuroscience experiment. Right. Okay. Number three, chronic loneliness raises stress, hormones and inflammation. 

Ben Rein: True.

That is the one that we've already, that was the hint earlier that we already discussed. 

Dr. Brighten: Yeah. Okay. So let me ask you this though, because we did talk about social media earlier. What do you think social media in the current way it is showing us divisive content, trying to rage beta us and pitting us against other humans is actually doing to our brain and our ability to form meaningful relationships.

Because what happens on Instagram doesn't stay on Instagram. 

Ben Rein: Yeah. Uh, I mean, there's no question that social media is not social. Um, it, it incorporates social elements. Right? Of course, we are seeing content, like I'm thinking about the Instagram feed scrolling experience. Mm-hmm. You're seeing someone, you know, posted a picture, look, they're in Greece, they're with their mom or whatever.

They got married, they bought a house. Like it's social. You're taking in social [00:29:00] information. But it is in no way comparable to a real life social experience, social interaction. Uh, and, and the data suggests that that is true. You know, when you look at the, the mood benefits of, well, not even social media, but just online interactions.

So if you actually have a real interaction where you're, you're FaceTiming with someone or you're phone calling or you're texting with them, not just scrolling on social media, uh, people don't feel as good after those virtual interactions, uh, compared to in-person interactions. Mm-hmm. And for me, the, the reasoning seems very clear.

I mean, we are interacting face-to-face right now, which is awesome. I love doing in-person podcasts. It's a rare thing, but we have all these cues that we can detect and your facial expression, your body language, your vocal tone, that those cues are going into my brain. I'm not thinking about it. My brain's just a computer that does this.

I just processing and computing [00:30:00] a an assessment of your mood and your feelings and your reaction to what I just said. And, you know, whether you're kind of done with this topic and ready for the next thing, you're getting a little bored, right? Like, there's all this information that's going in here and just happening and your, your social cues are what's doing that.

So what we go to, even a video call for instance, we could be doing this through a screen that we would lose two things. We would lose social smells, which. We don't detect anything. Probably, I don't know, maybe there's some social smells going on here, but it might not be doing. There definitely 

Dr. Brighten: is. I mean, even if you can't, even if like the olfactory center is not like you are smelling, I'm still detecting you, you are still detecting me.

Right? I mean that is, to go back to the evolutionary, uh, you know, what I think is interesting is that they've done studies on like when women are ovulating, when they're not ovulating, when they're in menopause, when they're on birth control pill. And we see that there are different interactions and on the flip side where women's hormones are at are also dictating who we're perceiving as who we want in our environment.

Yeah. [00:31:00] And this isn't just what we see. You know, I, I don't know if you're familiar with the research on like women picking up, like the whole pheromone thing, being more about MHC complexes and compatibility and like I'm reading your immune system right now and I'm also, I think that, you know, there's the social cues of being sick, right?

But there's also the like I gotta detect that 'cause you'd be a threat, right? True. 

Ben Rein: Yeah. That's maybe an olfactory thing. It might be something you smell, but the other thing we lose in video interaction is eye contact, right? Mm-hmm. It becomes impossible 'cause you would've to both be looking at your camera and then you're not looking at each other so you lose eye contact.

Yeah. Which is important. Uh, you know, studies show that. Not to go on a whole tangent, but eye contact is important trigger for intra brainin synchrony when two brains synchronize. And, uh, 

Dr. Brighten: let me just say, I've had this weekend, three sex experts. Okay. Like psychologists who, uh, specialize in human sexuality, who have all said eye contact is one of the most important things that couples are missing out on.

So you saying that [00:32:00] like, I'm like, oh, you just like made this huge connection for our audience. 

Ben Rein: Yeah, no, I mean, 'cause inter brain synchrony now we, I don't wanna, this could be like a 20 minute diversion. I'll make it 30 seconds when people are working together, you know, uh, on the same wavelength, right.

Thinking kinda the same things certain brain areas can synchronize. Mm-hmm. And it's not like there's some like quantum leap where like our brains are like, we're 

Dr. Brighten: not telepathic. No. It, that miraculously it's not. Right. It's, 

Ben Rein: it's that we are just sort of, we're just on the same page. Right. We are thinking the same things.

We understand the situation from the same way. At least that's my take. I mean, there might be neuroscientists out there who think it's some sort of quantum thing. I don't, um, there's probably a few that think that way. Anyways, that's important because people actually, there's, there's studies showing that when people are experiencing inter brain synchrony, it improves cooperation in certain ways mm-hmm.

On certain tasks. And, um, romantic couples are at a higher likelihood of experiencing inter brain synchrony and specifically during eye contact. Mm-hmm. So it is an important thing. And so, you know, when you're, [00:33:00] you think about long-term couples that you're FaceTiming and maybe you're more likely to get in an argument or something like that.

Right. We're kind of. We're distancing, we're losing some of the social texture for our brains. 

Dr. Brighten: Yeah. 

Ben Rein: And so, you know, you can imagine what happens as we go down this like pyramid of, uh, of digital interactions. You go from video call to phone call, okay. Now you can't see any body language, you can't see any facial expressions.

You're losing more of that, that my brain, our brains are just soaking in and using to form an understanding of each other. Without that, what happens? Well, you struggle to understand each other and mm-hmm. Why would my brain perceive that I am interacting with human being when all of the typical cues that tell my brain, this is a human pay attention to their emotions are not there.

And so I actually have a theory on this, or hypothesis, I call it the virtual disengagement hypothesis. In other words, when we interact [00:34:00] virtually digitally, the, I believe the brain areas that drive empathy, disengage. Mm-hmm. 'cause typically what? 

Dr. Brighten: Well, that explains so much social media behavior. Exactly.

Ben Rein: Exactly. 'cause typically what happens when we perceive vocal tone and all that stuff, I mentioned that it kind of just goes into my brain just picks it up. Right? That's empathy. So the brain has empathy related empathy systems that they turn on when this social information is detected. And it helps you understand what someone's thinking on social media.

We don't have those cues. And so. We may not empathize as much, and empathy at its core is defined as the sharing of someone else's experience, right? Mm-hmm. You take on their emotions, so, you know, if I were to step on your toes right now and you were to be hurt by that, I would feel bad because your pain hurts me because of empathy, right?

I take on some of that negative experience, but if I comment something really mean on your social media, I, and you might have the same sort of painful response. I'm not there to witness it. Mm-hmm. I don't experience your social cues, [00:35:00] so my brain is completely free to go. Right. I can just move on with my life without feeling bad at all.

And so I, I use this analogy in the, in the book about placing a tack, right? You place a tack as a kindergartner trying to prank a friend, and then you move on, and now years later, a child just sat on the tack in your childhood elementary school and they're crying and they're in the nurse's office. Do you feel empathy?

Right? It's kind of like mm-hmm. Does a tree that falls in the woods by itself make a sound? How can you feel empathy when you are not witnessing the cues? You are directly responsible for that child's pain, but you're not aware of it. Yeah. And so on social media, we are not present for the moment where the, the whoever posted steps on attack, we just don't witness it.

And so I think that is a big driver behind our hostility. And what I particularly worry about is empathy is something that we, we largely learn through experience through childhood. And in the modern world where kids are interacting more [00:36:00] and more online in their early life 

Dr. Brighten: mm-hmm. 

Ben Rein: I worry about whether what happens to a brain when the key social moments where you learn about empathy are happening in digital environments.

Yeah. Where our brains are potentially behaving differently. Would a person in that environment still develop empathy the same way? And I worry that it may not. Um, and so, you know, when it comes to what's the net effect of, of social media? I mean, I think it's, it's destroying our attention, you know? Mm-hmm.

This is sort of like one of those social media things where it's like, people say it on social media, like, I actually agree. And anecdotally, it's like even myself, I mean, I, I have felt my attention span shrink, which is really sad because I, it used to be stronger, but we are all just, you know, there are so many forms of entertainment constantly competing for our attention.

Dr. Brighten: Mm-hmm. 

Ben Rein: And it's like [00:37:00] anything in life, right? Like, I remember learning in high school or college that when you're in a habit or when you're in a relationship, what's the most likely thing to break up a relationship? It's a strong alternative, right? So if you meet someone you really like, you're, that's a major threat to your relationship.

'cause you have something else. 

Dr. Brighten: Yeah. 

Ben Rein: Like, that's pretty much what we're experiencing on social media all the time. You're watching a video that you like and you're enjoying it, but then you're thinking, oh, the next video my feed might be something even better. Then that impulse grows stronger and stronger and like, I've actually experienced this where I'm enjoying what I'm watching and then, and I wanna watch the end of it.

I'm like, nah, I'm gonna see what's next. And then I just kind of move on. Mm-hmm. I don't think that's good. 

Dr. Brighten: It also is changing people's behavior overall because the way the algorithm is conditioning people to capture attention, to continue to entertain, to shock. And I think about that and I think about how we're gonna look back at these, I think a lot about doctors who do take down content who are like, [00:38:00] this stupid influencer is a scammer and a grifter and this is why we hate them.

Kind of content. I think that's one, it's really solidifying not to trust doctors, um, and that we are ego egotistical assholes. I think it's like, how do we build, rebuild trust when you behave so poorly? I have just within my own house, I have two boys. I have to raise them to be men that people wanna be in relationship with.

And I'm always talking about kindness. So for me, I'm like, I can't go on social media that lives forever and be a contradiction to what I'm teaching my children. My son is the only kid in his class who's not on social media. Wow. And he tells me that. He's like, I'm the only one that doesn't have social media.

And the first time he asked me why, I was like, because I love you. And I was like, that's not to say that their parents don't love them. I just can't know what I know. And, and be okay with you being on social media. It's always gonna be there. But also you and I close similar [00:39:00] ages. How much stuff are you so glad was never documented.

Like, oh my gosh. I mean, I was like a first user of Facebook because they opened it up to college students, but we just like poked each other. I still don't get that, uh, decades later, like, but it was how we formed study groups. That's what we used Facebook for. But I look back to like the college experi experience and stuff and like how much stupid stuff I saw at parties, but nobody had a cell phone.

Nobody was documenting anything. So I also think about that aspect. But back to my point about like the, the doctors and the take down content and all that, I think we're gonna look back and be in 20 years and be like, that was really bad. We should have never done that. We should have never. That was very toxic for like human brains altogether.

Um, before we started recording, we were talking about like people's selfishly being kind because it's good for them selfishly seeking relationships. And it's something that as you're talking about social media, when I get hateful comments, I often [00:40:00] will go and be like, I'm leaving 10 positive comments for someone else.

Or if I see someone, there's this pregnant woman on TikTok. It was just getting hated on in the comments for this dress she wore. I would never wear this dress 'cause I don't have her confidence. But seeing all of that, I was like, I'm so glad you are so confident you're pregnant. I left this comment that was positive and then the way people pounced on me and I was like, whoa.

In some ways I just like took the heat away from her. I was like, you're affecting a fetus. Okay. You're affecting a baby in the future. Yeah, right. But it's all to say that like, I will when I'm like, oh, that comment hurt. I'm like, okay, what will make me feel better? I'm gonna like, I see a chef who made a good plate and I'm like, I'm so like proud of you for like trying this or like, thank you for sharing this with me.

Like, and I will go and do that. Like I'm gonna just leave 10 positive comments and I'm like, then I feel so much better. Hmm. So let's talk about that. Like the selfishness of like, I'm gonna be positive, I'm gonna put out positivity because [00:41:00] it makes me feel better. Are we just being selfish jerks out there?

Or are we having a positive impact? 

Ben Rein: Well, first lemme just comment on that. The video you're talking about with the pregnant woman, you 

Dr. Brighten: know, this video, I don't 

Ben Rein: know the video. Okay. Okay. But it's, it's, I just wanna draw back to it. 'cause it's such a good example of this. Like, if you were walking on the street and you saw this, this woman, or anybody, anybody who commented on the video something mean if they saw that pregnant woman on the street, they would never, even if they met her and were talking with her, they would absolutely never be like, that dress looks terrible on you.

You should be ashamed for wearing it, or whatever people said in the comments. Yeah. That would never ever happen because of empathy, because we know that it's gonna hurt the person. But on social media, we just have this distance. And so it's like, I don't know, it, it's like this, this carelessness, like you just, like your consciousness just goes away and you are just so much more prone to leaving comments like that.

And it's, it's horrific. Horrific. I mean, like you said, it's affecting a fetus. It's, that's so terrible. But I think that's a good example of it. Okay. So as for the, you know, the kindness and the positivity, I mean Yes. 

Dr. Brighten: Selfishly [00:42:00] kind. Yeah. Well, so 

Ben Rein: people do feel better when they are nice. Mm-hmm. Actually, you know, when you're, when you give people compliments, you know, when you're, when you express gratitude, things like that, those are natural mood boosters.

They make us feel better. And I do have this belief that in a world where. We are feeling more and more divided from each other for so many reasons, not just like physically divided and social media getting between us and all this stuff, but also, I mean, politically divided and, you know, there's so many reasons why we are separating from each other.

Dr. Brighten: Mm-hmm. 

Ben Rein: I think that if people can understand that being nice to someone is actually good for you, then maybe it sort of, it gets around those divid, those divides and those barriers that we've placed between each other. Mm-hmm. Because, you know, I, this concept I also bring up in the book, I call it selfish selflessness.

Is that controversial? I don't know. I mean, maybe in certain instance [00:43:00] instances, that's what is needed to sort of get the job done, right? Mm-hmm. But I think another related concept to this is that we often do look at what makes us different. Uh, the brain has a tendency to focus on that. And, and once it detects that, once it detects that we are, there's something different about someone, the brain starts to treat that person differently, much more negatively.

Um, you know, they, the main thing is, again, this comes back to empathy, you know, those empathy systems, they rev up a lot more when we detect that someone is like us. And, you know, I have happens to me all the time, or in passing someone like, I'm from Buffalo, New York. If I see someone in a Bills. Sweater or something, I immediately just like, I like them more written.

Dr. Brighten: Oh. I was like, is he not a Bills fan? Is he a Bills fan? Yeah. People are gonna be commenting being like, I here the Bills. Yeah. I went 

Ben Rein: Angry Jets and Dolphins and Patriots fans. But yeah. You know, I, it, it just, there's something about it where you just like snap into this respect for someone when you see that they're like you.

Mm-hmm. And then on the other hand, [00:44:00] I mean, how does it feel when you see someone who's unlike you? I mean, all over the country we have people outside protesting and rallying and mm-hmm. You know, how does it feel when you drive past people rallying for a cause that you don't believe in? Yeah. A, a lot of the time these outdoor rallies and stuff are political, right?

So if you didn't vote for Donald Trump and you see people out there waving around Trump flags, the, the distance that you feel from those people is real. You know, the brain treats them differently and vice versa. Mm-hmm. If you voted for Trump and you see people waving, you know, Kamala Harris flags or whatever, if anyone would be doing that at this point.

But that's to me concerning because I think we've gotten really, really good at identifying all the various ways that we can be different from someone. Mm-hmm. You know, it, it didn't used to be as salient that we didn't pay as close, close attention to all the ways that we are. Different. But I think right now we have this like, and social media is actually feeding this a lot.

Where we're building this culture around identity. Where like, what is [00:45:00] your gender identity? What is your sexuality? What is your religion? What is your political identity? There are so many ways that these very personal things are being pulled to the surface of someone's identity. Mm-hmm. And that's often also what's underlying the hostility and criticism and harassment and all that terrible shit that's happening on social media is that person's different from me.

Yeah. I disagree with your beliefs and so I'm gonna let you have it especially 'cause my brain's basically turned off right now while I'm attacking you on social media. 

Dr. Brighten: Mm. 

Ben Rein: And so I, what I really want people to think about is what that does to the brain. You know, we're talking about isolation, we're talking about the negative health effects of, of not being connected.

What happens to your brain when you are living in a world where you perceive that you're surrounded by enemies? Right. That's a very bad thing. And also what happens to your interactions when your empathy systems are turning off? Because the first thing you're thinking about when you see your uncle is that they voted for the other political candidate.

And so you're [00:46:00] different and so you don't respect them the same. Mm-hmm. And I, I just want people to get back to what do we have in common. Right. And I, and that may seem like such a ridiculous request at this point, but. It's a really good starting point because, you know, there's so many ways to do it. You can go to like meetup events where let's say you love, um, mountain biking, you know?

Mm-hmm. You can find groups who are mountain bikers and you can go, and that particular example is gonna draw all sorts of different people from all sorts of different backgrounds, and you'll share something in common that you all love mountain biking and that you're all mountain biking together and it gives you something to pull to the surface.

Yeah. Over those other identity measures. And I think, um, if we, especially in the us, if we really want to climb out of this, you know, these trenches of isolation that we find ourselves in, I think we're gonna have to sort of shake off some of the importance of identity and allow us to just recognize.

These other human beings are [00:47:00] a lot like me, and being around them is good for my brain. 

Dr. Brighten: What's the incentive of the trenches though? Who's benefiting from it? Because there are definitely people who want to keep us divided, who want to make sure that we are distracted, that we are cultivating negative thoughts.

Like why 

Ben Rein: without going fully conspiratorial. Um, I 

Dr. Brighten: don't know though. Like, you know, it's funny how like in, uh, like 2020 we're gonna talk about the pandemic. 'cause I got questions about that, how everything became a conspiracy theory. Yeah. And I'm like, but wait a minute. Like so many things have some truth to them.

We have to explore. And then it's like, oh, everything is like, you are this crazy tinfoil hat person if you ask like these questions. And it's like, you know, like it's just normal to have questions as a human and like, and so go be conspirator. Have the conspiracy, have the hypothesis. We'll just call it that and be like, and we'll see how it shakes out later.

Right? Sure. 

Ben Rein: Yeah. I mean, I mentioned that isolation is a form of stress. Mm-hmm. The [00:48:00] other thing is, you know, it's not just stress. There's more to it. And one of the ways that isolation affects the brain is it alters social information processing. 

Dr. Brighten: Mm-hmm. 

Ben Rein: There's literally, you know, studies that basically when people are isolated, they show different brain responses to, uh, social information.

So for instance, people who are more isolated when they see negative social images, like in the study I'm thinking of they, one of the images they used was, uh, a man slapping a woman. Isolated people show larger brain responses. Mm-hmm. In certain brain areas like visual cortex, does that mean they're showing hyperresponsiveness to negative social information?

Maybe. So, I mean, evolutionarily, that makes a bit of sense. That when you're cast out from your tribe and then you enter a new tribe and you're exposed to no more social information, you should be paying close attention to your environment. Mm-hmm. And you should be a bit skeptical, right? Because if you find a new tribe and they welcome you in, well, can you really trust these people?

And so in that same vein, there's also evidence that [00:49:00] isolated people struggle with trust. They are less likely to trust others, they're also less likely to be trusted by others. And so if you think about when people are isolated, they have, they struggle with trust. Okay? They also pay closer attention to negative social information.

Interesting. That person is extremely vulnerable to conspiracy, actually. Mm-hmm. Right? Because 

Dr. Brighten: as we present a conspiracy, right? 

Ben Rein: I mean, yeah. And it, you know, whe whether there is a, you know, I don't necessarily believe that there is a a a they, right? Like, I think 

Dr. Brighten: I'm gonna, I'm gonna jump in here. I a hundred percent believe that the major media sources want to keep us in this loop of being addicted to negative content.

And we see this by evidence of what does the news present, what also what will meta tee up for you. We know that, uh, if you open up, if you are male. You open up a new social media account, [00:50:00] YouTube, TikTok, meta, you name it, they're gonna show you like very polarizing negative things. So there is definitely, and so everybody listening, they might be jumping to like, oh, so she must think like something, let me be clear what I think.

I think it's advertising dollars. Yeah, I think it's, if you can captivate and hold attention and you've got, I mean, look at food science. Okay, so my, my degree, food science and nutrition, we figured out what your neurochemistry is and how to manipulate food to hijack your natural inclinations. Social media has done the same thing.

Media at a whole has done the same thing with our neurochemistry of like hijacking us. And it is all because more eyes is more dollars. And so that's my conspiracy you guys is that it's about advertising dollars. It's about generating money. I'm sure some people are gonna be like, this is political manipulation, or this or that, maybe.

I don't know. I haven't put much thought into that, but I think it's more about like, if I can [00:51:00] keep you addicted and keep you here, I can show you more ads and I make more money. 

Ben Rein: No, I agree. And that's, that's the direction I was headed, you know? 'cause Sorry, then I shouldn't have cut you off. No, no, no. I'm, I'm glad you said it 

Dr. Brighten: because now you're like, she can take the heat.

Ben Rein: I could simply endorse. Um, no, but I mean, 'cause that's, that's really, that's where I was going, you know, I was, what I was starting to say is I don't think there's a, they right. Like. Because you can go real deep into this where it's like, wow, well, like did you know major? Did mainstream American media start the COVID pandemic?

Like no. But when conditions change and we end up, in certain circumstances, capitalism is gonna capitalism, right? Like yeah. If we are, if we are isolated and suddenly, like during the COVID pandemic, we are now more likely to struggle with trust. And so we're gonna be more focused maybe on stories that reaffirm our distrust of 

Dr. Brighten: mm-hmm.

Ben Rein: Certain institutions, we are paying closer attention to negative social signals. Suddenly the news starts paying, playing more negative information because they [00:52:00] recognize, hey, when we do this, our viewership goes up and so we can, you know, uh, uh, charge more for ad slots, right? Like 

Dr. Brighten: mm-hmm. 

Ben Rein: I think that there's a very coincidental, circumstantial shift that was probably triggered by COVID, where like, because we were so isolated, we started to process information differently.

And so yeah, like the news just followed the money and now here we are years later still in this shit stew of whatever the hell this is, you know? And a couple months ago, um. There was the whole thing where, um, Donald Trump said something about transgender mice. 

Dr. Brighten: Oh, yeah. The transgenic mice, but Yes, yes.

And which is a good example of like why scientists need to be collaborating with everyone, because it can, that, like one word can be very confusing. So I want you to make your point, but I think we also should explain people what the difference is, 

Ben Rein: right? Yeah. So transgenic mice, so like in my research I've used [00:53:00] transgenic mice.

You're altering the genome of mice. Um, like for example, in my research we were looking at, uh, genetic risk factors for autism. And so we would, you know, there are certain genes that, you know, genetic changes that are associated with autism in humans. We wanna study what those, how those genes are affecting brain function.

So we would introduce those specific changes into the, the genomes of mice. We are changing trans, their genome genic, so those are transgenic mice. Um, and so whatever, so there's a quote where Donald Trump said something about, oh, they're, they're making the mice transgender. I think he meant transgenic.

Maybe he didn't. But anyways, the, the, I saw that and it upset me. 'cause I thought, my god, we, yeah, like you said, we need more scientists communicating with political leaders to make sure that they understand what's going on. But then what also upset me was then I saw a video going super viral on TikTok. I think it was.

Where someone was correcting and they were, and they were like, Donald Trump is so stupid, you know, he, he said transgender, he meant transgenic. This is what transgenic M are. [00:54:00] And then the guy in the video explained completely wrong. 

Dr. Brighten: Oh, was that the video where he was like, they're injecting human DNA, 

Ben Rein: I can't remember the exact explanation, but it was completely wrong.

Mm-hmm. And what upset me was that people were going wild rallying in the comments, being like, you know, share this, everyone share this. We need to make sure that everyone knows like the truth. And it's like, this is not the truth. Yeah. And what frustrated me about that was that for people who opposed Donald Trump, that video was such a satisfying slap in the face of Donald Trump, that it didn't even matter if the information was valid or not.

Dr. Brighten: Mm. What does that say about like our neurochemistry and bias? 

Ben Rein: Yeah, I mean, exactly. There's nothing more satisfying than seeing the opposition be defeated, right? Mm-hmm. And what frustrates me is that we are allowing our ingroup, outgroup dynamics to become more important than the quality of information.

Mm-hmm. And there's this, this problem in America that's been happening for years that has been referred to as truth decay, right? We're losing a sense of truth, right? Anything can be labeled as misinformation, [00:55:00] fake news. We are losing a sense of what is reality. You know, news outlets can report whatever they want and you know, and then be cited as a reference when the actual information is wrong in the news outlet.

It's concerning. And I think that, you know, this is just my opinion, but I think. Evidence should be our primary guide. Mm-hmm. And you may be more likely to trust evidence when it comes from someone who you share opinions with. But the in-group identity of someone does not necessarily make them a trustworthy source of information.

The fundamental reality of what happened and what information is true is different depending on your political lean. Mm-hmm. And that to me is just like the scariest thing in the universe. It is so concerning. 

Dr. Brighten: Yeah. I think it's also concerning that when someone doesn't understand something that is complex science, how quick people are to say, you are stupid.

Lemme say, people who are truly smart don't tend to [00:56:00] like, have to like step on someone else to like demonstrate their intelligence. But when you, you see that, I'm always like, this is why people are afraid to ask questions. This is why people are afraid to have statements. Like we all have our level of expertise.

Like I can sit here with you, I, uh, have probably already said something dumb and I'm gonna say something dumb again in the context of if I'm held to the standard to have the same level of knowledge as you. But I think that's like a, a really slippery slope. You, you brought up though, like listening to experts.

You are an expert in autism. You have done research in this arena. We have seen this go so political and. I see there is no left or right or any, everybody's getting so much wrong in so many ways. What do you think are some of the big things that people are getting wrong, especially when it comes to like the cause of autism?

Ben Rein: In the year 1998, a scientist named Andrew Wakefield published a study and the [00:57:00] study said that the MMR vaccine 

Dr. Brighten: mm-hmm. 

Ben Rein: Increased the risk of autism. And it was in like, there was like 14, I think patients, it was maybe 17, it was small. And this study hit the news and everybody was like, uhoh, you know, yikes.

Vaccines, autism. And then what ended up happening quietly in the background was it turned out Andrew Wakefield was involved in a lawsuit against a pharmaceutical company. And so he had fabricated the data to use in court. So he was, it was made of data. And, and the thing that like crushes me about this is like nowadays we have so many people who are like, you can't trust any science because all science is funded by pharmaceutical companies.

First off, it's completely not true. I've been, you know, I've published 20 plus papers, worked with hundreds of researchers. I've never heard of anybody having a research study funded by a big pharma company. Never sure can happen. I've never heard of it actually happening. [00:58:00] But the people who say that, they're like, you can't trust that study.

'cause there's a conflict of interest. They were funded by big pharma and then oftentimes. People with that opinion will also believe that vaccines are associated with autism. Who they 

Dr. Brighten: believe vaccines cause autism. Yes. Yeah. Right. That, that it's a direct cause. 

Ben Rein: Right. And the, the irony about that is that the original paper that suggested, and by the way, the only paper that suggested that vaccines cause autism had a conflict of interest because he was embroiled in an, uh, lawsuit against the vaccine company.

Mm-hmm. And so he fabricated the data 'cause he had an incentive to do it. And so it's the exact same issue with saying, oh, you know, you could say the studies that say vaccines are safe, are funded by big pharma, so you can't trust them. Well, the studies that say vaccines cause autism, were trying to oppose big pharma companies.

Anyways, so the paper was retracted, the one that was published in 1998. And ever since then, people have believed that vaccines cause autism. Naturally this has triggered scientists to say, well, we should probably like check, right? Mm-hmm. And so there are studies with millions of children comparing vaccination status with [00:59:00] likelihood of autism diagnosis and there's no relationship.

So it has been shown time and time again with massive sample sizes that there's no link between vaccines and autism, and yet it's continuously a topic, right? Mm-hmm. We, we have, this is very much a political topic now, but I mean that's that again. I allowed the data to lead me. And the data say that there are no links between those two things when it comes to the actual causes of autism.

Genetics is a, a major component. Um, there's estimates are all over the place, but let's say, to be fair, maybe like 40 to 60% of autism cases are related to genetics. Mm-hmm. Um, and that was the, the basis of my PhD. It was studying specific genetic changes and how they influence brain function, the activity in socially, you know, social related brain areas.

Um, then there are also, so there are environmental factors. Mm-hmm. That is a real thing. Uh, which can be, you know, things like maternal stress during pregnancy, maternal sickness during [01:00:00] pregnancy. Uh, 

Dr. Brighten: inflammation. Obesity, 

Ben Rein: yeah, yeah, yeah. Age ex exposure to environmental toxins. Mm-hmm. Utero, um, like pollution and things like that.

Or like diesel, gas, things like that. And then there are certain drugs like valproic acid, VPA, so in utero can also is associated with autism. And what's interesting by the way, is that when scientists wanna study autism in mice, there are ways that basically we will induce, we'll try to induce autism mm-hmm.

In a mouse. And, you know, it's, obviously, it's not autism, but it's, they show similar changes. They're less social and inter and things like that. And some of the ways that that happens is one mile is called maternal immune activation. So they're triggering an immune response in the mother while mm-hmm.

Pregnant. Um. Another is Velcro acid exposure. So exposure to VPA while in utero. Um, and then the others are, are mostly genetic. And then lastly, there are also what's called idiopathic cases, which are basically, we don't know what's going on. 

Dr. Brighten: Mm-hmm. 

Ben Rein: And that's usually where people will say, well [01:01:00] that's probably where the, the vaccines come in.

Um, but you know, again, and uh, truly I hate to have this conversation after having just had a political conversation. 'cause it's, it's impossible for a listener to say, this guy's totally neutral. I try to be, but you know, the data say that there's not a, a role for vaccines. So 

Dr. Brighten: I'm gonna, I'm gonna tell you like straight up as somebody who just sold another book that I met with publishers publishing houses, who literally said to me on the call, you cannot talk about anything political if you were to work with us.

And I asked them, well how, because I'm in health, I work in women's health. I didn't choose to be political. Yeah. Like, politics chose us. And like, and we're just in the ring and I'm just like trying to help people sort through this. So, you know, going back, um, to what you said, we saw recently announced that acetaminophen cause of autism.

And I wanna ask you, 'cause you are the expert in this arena. 

Ben Rein: So there's another variable which is maybe the health of the mother lurking in the background that is associated with both [01:02:00] increased risk of using acetaminophen and increased risk of child having autism. And there's another study that came out a couple months ago, um, that was just like this.

Terrible garbage study that was produced by these scientists who are like very clearly desperate to find evidence that vaccines cause autism. Like they like lead this organization that's all about vaccines and autism. Mm-hmm. The paper's been retracted like multiple times and like they've been trying to publish it forever, but they finally got it published, um, published on a website that is like, meant to look like a scientific journal, but it's actually just this guy's website.

Uh, and it was peer reviewed by the editor of the journal who's also in the organization that they run anyways. 

Dr. Brighten: So you wanna talk about conspiracy when people are like, this is funded by pharma. I think every piece of science that comes out, like we have to sit through the lens of like, what, it's really lame too, right?

For science to be like that, where we have to be like, okay, who are the players? Who are the players? Especially when it is flying in the face of like, years of data. 

Ben Rein: Exactly. When [01:03:00] something comes out, it makes no sense. The initial response should be to call bullshit if it goes against the existing data.

Yeah. Um, 

Dr. Brighten: but we have to be cautious, right? Because Handwashing was once upon a time bullshit and we institutionalized that guy. So Yeah. I'll say like, things do change. Yeah, 

Ben Rein: absolutely. They do change. Yeah. I, I think it's, it depends on the context anyway. So this study that I'm talking about, they basically found that people who went for more vaccines were way more likely to have autism.

Mm-hmm. And again, it's like, that's like, holy cow, 117 times. Like definitely not vaccinating my kids. Okay. Hit the brakes. What is the confounding variable in this case? Well, 

Dr. Brighten: more doctor's visits. Exactly. More screenings. Yeah. That's my first thought. Yeah. 

Ben Rein: If the people who, the parents and the children I guess too, but mostly let's think about the parents.

'cause they're really making the decisions in this case who are more likely to take their kids for all these doctor visits, which incorporate vaccines are also much more likely to take their child to the doctor for an autism assessment. Mm-hmm. When their child starts demonstrating some sort of social symptoms.

And so yeah, it's like [01:04:00] the, the thing about that study is it really brings to the light this important dilemma, which is that like science very much can be political. Mm-hmm. And it depends on how it's presented. It really does. Because you can easily control for other variables there, but, or you could not.

Mm-hmm. Right. And in this case it did not. And so it creates this, this bar graph where you look at and you're like, whoa. Right. And, and this happens all the time on the news too, where there's like funny examples of this on social media where there's a bar graph and it's like, you know, they'll have like number of mass shootings and they'll be like 40, 60 and then like this year 80.

And it's like, why is the difference, you know? Yeah. It's like, it's also a 20 difference. Yeah. But it's like massive and it's just like the way it's presented and mm-hmm. Um, as a scientist, I absolutely hate that people have decided to start basically using data as a way to. You know, manipulate people who pay attention to the news, you know?

Mm-hmm. But it's really [01:05:00] concerning. And then I also, I, I empathize with people who are distrustful of science. I understand, you know, science has done a lot wrong, right? We've like the way that science works that if I were to publish a paper today, I publish it in a scientific journal, it'll be behind a paywall.

It'll be full of jargon. There's basically no way for the average person to read and understand it. That's a huge problem, right? How can we expect people to respect and listen to science when science is so withdrawn from society, that's a problem 

Dr. Brighten: and on purpose, you know, I think about that, um, journal.

The article, uh, that came out and their whole game was if you put it into like, chat GPT or AI to read it, it's gonna give you the wrong stuff. Yeah. And I'm like, you are jerks. You are absolute jerks if you're listening to your jerk. Um, because like this was an opportunity to make science accessible. Like I have literally on this podcast told people, take a study, put it in a chat GPT, and first thing say, [01:06:00] what are all the flaws and limitations of this study?

Now, you know? Okay. Fir I'm gonna go into it this way. Okay. And then you can start prompting chat GPT to like, okay, so like, what were the findings of this study? What should I read to verify these studies? Like you could use AI to teach yourself how to understand a scientific study. Yeah. I mean, it could literally coach you.

I, during the pandemic, I think it was, uh, Yale that had a course that they put online of like how to understand science so that they could get more people, science literate, AI comes out, people have that opportunity, and then you have this like journal article come out and I saw people putting it out, these scientists being like, ha ha, you can't just use AI and see.

And I'm like. Why would you handicap people from being able to understand science? You want them to trust? Like what's your end goal? To be like the expert, the gatekeeper, or to actually make science accessible? I would hope it would be the latter, but like, I don't know. I don't wanna play with you because like, you don't play [01:07:00] nicely.

Yeah. 

Ben Rein: Well, I think that that also raises something that's important is that scientists are human beings. And all human beings have opinions. All human beings sometimes do things that we disagree with. You know, even people we love, like my parents, like people close to me, I love them to death. They often do things that I'm like, why would you ever do that?

Right. And so it's entirely possible that you and I, if we were sitting down with that scientist, we would agree on everything except that one decision. Right? Yeah, 

Dr. Brighten: absolutely. I love that you say that because people will think if you disagree with one thing, you hate that person. Right. And that is not, I'm like, there is no human on this planet that I agree with.

A hundred percent. And like I find confrontation and conflict to actually be a good thing sometimes. Yeah. Because it's what actually challenges me to reframe, rethink, grow my knowledge. 

Ben Rein: I think that's actually another part of what's, what's sort of happened culturally in the last few years is like, is that exactly what you just said?

Right. We disagree on one thing, therefore I am not able to permit you in my life [01:08:00] whatsoever. Mm. You know, and, and that's actually, yeah. That's like fundamentally at the root of what I care about so much is that if we do that, if we allow people, if we allow ourselves to create distance with other people, just because we disagree about something, we're actually doing a major disservice to our health and our biology.

Mm-hmm. And that's a problem. 

Dr. Brighten: Let me play devil's advocate here, going back to the vaccine in autism, because there are absolutely parents who are like, I gave my child a vaccine, they were a different person later. Yes. Is it plausible that born genetically you are autistic? And at the under underpinning of that, there is immune system dysregulation and that perhaps any immune ti stimulation, wh wh whether it's naturally acquired or it's vaccine acquired, could tip the scale and further the autism expression?

Ben Rein: In my mind, not really, because, okay, let's think about like, why, why would a genetic mutation or genetic [01:09:00] change B, increase the risk for autism, right? Mm-hmm. Like, this is literally what I've studied in my PhD. 

Dr. Brighten: This is why I'm asking you and because I know someone's in the comments right now. They've already left the comment on this.

Ben Rein: Yeah, a hundred percent. A hundred percent. I'm sure there's a lot of comments that I won't be excited to read later. I mentioned before that we have 86 billion neurons. They all have a thousand plus synapses, right? So there's just all this interaction that, the interaction that happens between neurons at those synapses, those junctions is called synaptic transmission.

Mm-hmm. And it's the, you know, we could think of like, you've seen the, the like textbook image before, right? There's two like ends of a neuron and then or two neurons are interacting. There's like the pre synapse, the post synapse, a neurotransmitter floats across and it binds to a receptor. Right? Like, 

Dr. Brighten: y'all better be on YouTube right now.

'cause he's doing all kinds of hands. I 

Ben Rein: got my hands on. Yeah. Uh, yeah. So, you know, look it up if you're listening. Um, or if you're not listening, if you're viewing too, like just look up a picture of a synapse, you can like, remember what I'm talking about. So there's so many players just in a [01:10:00] single synapse, right?

You have the like actual, like membrane, like the outer skin of the cell. Mm-hmm. You have the neurotransmitter itself, like dopamine or serotonin. You have the little vessel that. Carries the neurotransmitter, you have the little proteins that take that vessel and fuse it to the membrane and allow the neurotransmitter to sprinkle out into the space between, on the other side.

I mean, gosh, that's not even like a 10th of it. On the, that one side, on the other side, you have all these receptors. You have all these intracellular messengers where the receptor activates and then maybe there's some downstream cascade. It's really complicated and there's all sorts of players, right?

Mm-hmm. So there are a few different sort of explanations for what's happening in the brain in autism. Mm-hmm. But one that is very prominent and that I personally, um, think is a key player is this idea of excitation inhibition imbalance. And what that means is sometimes those signals between neurons are excitatory.

Mm-hmm. Which means that they turn up the activity of the receiving neuron. So one, you know, one neuron is [01:11:00] telling another neuron become more active, or it's the other way they're saying become less active. That's inhibitory. There's a delicate balance between those plus sign and minus sign signals. And if you have a sort of imbalance, whether that's too much activity or too little activity, specifically in certain brain areas like the prefrontal cortex, which is involved in social cognition and understanding what people are thinking.

Mm-hmm. If you have an imbalance in that activity in either direction, it can alter basically social interactions and the way people process social information. And so this is thought to be one of the potential like sort of causes, like brain causes of autism. So sorry, I mentioned this is like a huge topic.

I'm trying to explain all of it, so 

Dr. Brighten: I know. I'm like, do it in 30 seconds or less. Kidding. Explode. 

Ben Rein: So I'm almost there though. So, okay. Genetically, right? How can we get there? Mm-hmm. To an imbalance? Well, it's probably because one of the genes that codes for any of those proteins I mentioned, right? [01:12:00] Mm-hmm.

So we have the, the vesicle, we have the, the neurotransmitter, we have the receptor, we have all these different things. One of those genes may have changed spontaneously when the baby was, you know, a, a pack of 20 cells before it continued growing and became a human being. 

Dr. Brighten: Mm-hmm. 

Ben Rein: There was just a random genetic error because every time a cell divides, it needs to take all these, I don't remember, 20,000, 20 th 30,000 genes that humans have.

That's something I should know. Sorry. Um, hey, nobody's perfect. Uh, whatever, however many thousands of genes we have, the cell has to copy and replicate all of those genes. So imagine if you had to sit down with a pencil and copy all 30,000 genes, how many errors would you make? You'd probably make a few.

Dr. Brighten: Mm-hmm. 

Ben Rein: Every single time the cell has to do that when it divides. So errors happen randomly. If the error is, let's say in the gene that codes for the receptor that takes in the neurotransmitter and that receptor. Normally when it, when the rece, when the neurotransmitter binds to it, it makes the cell more active.

That [01:13:00] neurotransmitter is now broken in some way. There's something wrong with the code. The protein is like. Misfolded. And so it's not causing the cell to be activated. Mm-hmm. That can lead to this imbalance. Right. This, and that would probably lead to the lower end where the cells are less active because they're not getting this positive message.

Okay. Here we are now at the conclusion here. So that change in this micro molecular stuff in your brain would change how your brain cells interact. Mm-hmm. All the time. All this protein, this receptor is just all over your neurons and it's not functioning properly. And this is basically like how the genetic part of autism works.

It may be the receptor, it may be something else, but it's some part of this signaling mechanism is disrupted in some way or another. So that's just a genetic code change, not something that's like altered by experience. So if, if you were to get a vaccine or have a cold or something like that [01:14:00] and ramp up immune activity, it might temporarily exacerbate the, the effects of that change in the brain maybe.

Mm-hmm. Maybe, I mean, who knows? But it wouldn't necessarily like set off something or trigger something that would permanently change the way the brain functions because it's, you know, another example that I like to use of this is like. The, the blueprint for this chair I'm sitting in, if it was, if it was accidentally like misprinted, so that when you got this chair from wherever it was ordered from, there was no fourth leg.

And so the chair was just leaning this way and I'm leaning forward the whole interview. Right. And then like, some water rushes in here and, and floods the chair, and the chair gets wet. Like the chair is just always this way. It doesn't matter if it got wet, now it's just wet too. But it doesn't change like the way that it is.

Mm-hmm. Because that's just how the gene is, is encoded. And I hope that makes any amount of sense, um, after all that explanation. But in that particular case, it, it, which is like all, most of the genes associated with autism come back to this signaling mechanism. There [01:15:00] are some others that are involved in like immune activity and things like that and you know, who, you never know about a certain case, but like generally this sort of like vaccine induced injury model, um, just like does not necessarily make sense, you know, combined with, uh mm-hmm.

Like genetic, a predominantly genetic cause of autism. 

Dr. Brighten: Could you, and do you have a hypothesis of what might be going on? Because I don't think moms. Are lying when they say my child was one way and then they're another. Are you familiar with Pandas at all? No. He is pediatric autoimmune neuropsychiatric disorder associated with strep.

It's something my son went through. Okay. He, and I'm always very clear about this, and then somebody seeks to misunderstand me. He did not get a vaccine first. That doesn't mean I'm anti-vax. I'm saying it for the context of he had a strep infection. Because everybody always comes and says, your son was vaccine injured.

I'm like the, he didn't have a vaccine. He had a strep, uh, infection. Then I say [01:16:00] that and people say, well, you're anti-vax. And I'm like, okay, that's really fun. Uh, could we just like stay with the game that we're playing right now, which is that he got strep. His brain had an autoimmune attack and that left him from a child who at six months had his first word.

He's walking fine. He's hitting all the milestones early and then at five years old, he regresses. He can't speak, he can't walk, he can't use the bathroom on his own, and it was an inflammatory issue that happened. My child was a different human overnight. Oh, we worked on that. We resolved the infection, we brought on anti-inflammatories and he came back.

Some things residually were left affected, like dysgraphia persists because of the area of the brain that was affected in this. So having that had that experience, I do tend to believe moms, when they say something happened, my child was different. And so I think too often [01:17:00] doctors jump to autism. It was something with my son, they were like, he must be autistic.

And I'm like, maybe, yes. And there is this other thing going on, like somebody doesn't change overnight. And so sometimes I wonder if the, like in these cases of what's going on, maybe it's not actually autism, maybe it's actually something else. And I have the tendency to believe moms, but I also wonder if the tendency to be dismissing moms dismissing the, dismissing these stories and also being like, you know, not like, not ever vaccines and you know, uh, you know, if they even bring that up.

I think, um, bias comes up in a doctor's mind really quickly where they're like, I can't hear this story because she's just an anti-vaxxer right now. Mm-hmm. I mean, even as I tell my story, I had to be like, and this, and let me caveat because they don't want you to misunderstand me. Um, so I just wonder like, what could something else been going on and it's not even autism.

Ben Rein: Yeah. I mean, first off, like I believe moms too, like parents generally. I mean, I think. [01:18:00] I, I completely understand how frustrating it must be for people who experience something like this where suddenly they see a change in their kid and then, you know, they're listening to this interview and they're just like, screw this guy.

He doesn't get it. Right. Like the science, he's just a scientist. 

Dr. Brighten: Yeah. And, and 

Ben Rein: I guess, and I like if I, I mean I have a daughter coming next month, my first child. If that happened to my kid, I would probably feel exactly the same. I would be equally skeptical of vaccines in, in science and then I would be va skeptical of, of mm-hmm.

People like myself being, for dismissing the idea. I guess what I'm trying to say overall is that within our current understanding of autism and vaccines and the immune reaction that it triggers, it doesn't really fit in that it could be triggering autism. Um mm-hmm. 

Dr. Brighten: And I guess that's my point is like maybe what we're missing is it's not actually autism.

Yes. Something else is going on and we're just calling it autism. We're also seeing that, um, with intellectual disability, everyone's calling that autism, and [01:19:00] I'm like, intellectual disability co-occur with autism, but it's not autism itself. And the slippery slope in that is that if we just call everything autism and we try and, and right now what do we do with autism?

There's no treatment, there's no intervention really. There is like cognitive behavioral therapy and there is like, uh, you know, going to occupational therapy. There's all, all of these things, but like. If at the crux of it is something else going on, then we're, it's a missed opportunity to actually treat what the cause is.

Ben Rein: Yeah. I mean the, the funny thing about all this is like, autism is a manmade condition, right? Like we call it autism because psychiatrists came together and said, okay, hey, we're noticing that there's a lot of kids who are having these like social challenges, and they also happen to have a lot of repetitive behaviors.

Mm-hmm. Let's take those two things and pair them and call it autism. Yeah. Right. Autism spectrum disorder. Like, this is like a tough [01:20:00] pers perspective to share because it's like, it's complicated, but it's like human beings, uh, every trait we have exists on a spectrum. Mm-hmm. You know, like I mentioned, introversion, extroversion, right?

Like athleticism, how funny you are, you know, like anything like that, how fast you can run, whatever. We all exist somewhere in continuum. And for some of these things we have decided that if you exist at some place beyond this continuum that is a disorder and it's in the DSM five. Mm-hmm. And it is diagnosable and, and in some cases it's treatable 

Dr. Brighten: and completely subjective most of the time.

Ben Rein: Yeah. And so it makes sense that if you're going through something that at the time that you see the doctor for the. Autism diagnostic observation schedule the ADOS to get diagnosed with autism. If you are showing social deficits and repetitive behaviors, you'll be diagnosed with autism, right? Mm-hmm.

Because it is what our current psychiatric lens allows us to [01:21:00] categorize a person into. Right. But if humans were slightly different, we might not have classified those two things together, and it could be something else. So, and like we used to have Asperger's, right? And that was removed. Right now it's just autism spectrum disorder.

And so the experience someone could have in a clinical context 10 years ago or whenever that change was, would be completely different because we had just different names for these things. And so there's plenty of medical cases that are not necessarily explained by our current understanding and the current diagnoses that we have.

And so it is mm-hmm. Totally possible that we're missing information. And, and as an autism researcher, there's a lot that we don't understand about autism for sure. I mean, there's like a thousand genes that are associated with autism. And so whereas if you, you know, if you have a change in the genetic code, it can increase the risk of autism.

We are nowhere near understanding the contributions of all of those things. Not to mention the environmental [01:22:00] roles, you know, and then we have the idiopathic where we are just openly saying, we don't know, right? Mm-hmm. And also, the other thing about autism, this is also something I, I want people to understand about autism.

Social interaction, social behavior in general is so complicated and involves so many brain areas. And so there are so many places where a change in brain function can manifest as what we would call autism. Mm-hmm. And so it's, it's, it's almost like by the design of what we characterize as autism spectrum disorder and how like broad it is, we are just taking all these different neurobiological differences and classifying them all together, which may not necessarily be right.

And I can almost guarantee you my prediction is that in the next, you know, whenever the next DSM comes out, or maybe it'll be 20 or 50 years from now, we will have all these different subtypes of autism or maybe an entirely new condition that, that we refer to because it's a, it's a spectrum, right?

Mm-hmm. It's [01:23:00] autism spectrum for a reason because. It can manifest in so many different ways, which makes sense considering that there are so many different brain systems involved. 

Dr. Brighten: Yeah. 

Ben Rein: And so, you know, I, I'm cautious about, you know, saying like, well, you know, when it comes to vaccines, like anything's possible, but like, the truth is I'm cautious about that.

'cause I don't want my words to be like, taken and, and, you know, used as, look, here's a guy who studies autism saying it's possible. 

Dr. Brighten: Yeah. And, and because like, you are also, you have a, a whole book where you've done all this research about social connection and, and how humans are behaving and how humans are behaving online.

And so, you know, better than anyone else how someone is absolutely. Listening to this right now, being like, how can I take him out of context to fit my agenda and then run that and make it viral? 

Ben Rein: Right. Right. And so, you know, I wanted to be scientifically responsible, which would be to say the evidence says no.

Dr. Brighten: Mm-hmm. 

Ben Rein: But you can never rule anything out. The problem with saying that is that, like you just said, it can be, it can be used [01:24:00] to, yeah. To support a notion that I don't necessarily think is true. And that also is very political. 

Dr. Brighten: So, yeah. Well, I also think that when it comes to science, people have to understand that science is constantly questioning and willing to be wrong.

And saying, right now based on the evidence that we have here, is there current understanding of things? If I am presented with new evidence, that shows me otherwise, I am open to having my mind changed about that. And I think especially as we've talked in the context of this conversation and way social media has gone and media as a whole trying to shape us, it is that you are in this camp or you're in that camp.

And I think the pandemic contributed significant. The, the whole trust, the science, don't question it. People who question are conspiracy theories. And I was like, yo, yo, yo. Science is questioning. People should ask questions. People have absolutely right to ask questions and get the answer. And as health professionals, [01:25:00] we have to also say, we don't know either right now.

And I don't think enough people were comfortable saying that during the pandemic of like, yeah, we didn't get a playbook to this. We don't actually know, like, we're doing our best. This is our best hypothesis. It was a lot of like. Fake it till you make it kind of me mentality in a way. I don't really like that term, but the, the whole, like, we have to be strong experts who demand these things of you, otherwise you won't comply.

And we could have a higher risk. And I think that in a lot of ways that we rolled out of the pandemic with, there are people who disallow questioning science now, and then there are people who will never trust science. And that is part of this podcast of like, how do we get back to the middle where it's like you can trust science again, but you also do it critically.

Like you shouldn't, it's not religion. Like, it's not faith-based. It is something that is meant to be questioned and meant to be understood. 

Ben Rein: Yeah. I mean, I 100% agree. I mean, I think what [01:26:00] COVID did to science was, you know, it, it lost a lot of people's trust because it made science pretty much the focal point of all of humanity.

Everybody was sitting at home every day and being like, please science, figure this out. Save us. Yeah. Like, let us out again. 

Dr. Brighten: And then I think a lot of people had to reckon with the fact that like, medicine doesn't have all the answers and we can't always save you. And like that was like a big like, oh my god, kind of moment for people.

Ben Rein: Yeah. And, and that like, you know, I think that it was a, it was a major failure of public health messaging because there, you know, there was a, an unnecessary level of certainty injected. Mm-hmm. Where it's like, nope, you know, what was the controversy in the beginning? They were like. Tony Fauci was like, don't wear masks.

And then right after he was like, wear masks. Yeah. And like I think the reasoning for that was that he was trying to prevent people from taking all the masks so that medical providers could still have some in mm-hmm. In hospitals. Mm-hmm. But then people are like, why would you say like, don't wear masks?

Dr. Brighten: Why wouldn't you just be honest about it? Yeah, exactly. Like, we've got a PPP supply chain, [01:27:00] uh, issue. And like, we can't have the general public wearing masks right now, so like we have to get it to healthcare providers. Like there was, it was a lot of like trying to do the right thing, but justifying being dishonest with people because what your intention was was a good thing, but being dishonest about any step of the way I think was just the wrong move.

Ben Rein: Yeah. I mean, I think it, it, some of it might come down to media too, right? Where like in, in mainstream media in general, like certainty is not good, right? Mm-hmm. They don't want a lot of what I've been doing on this podcast where I'm like, well, this could be, it also could not be right. Like, they want, nobody likes the 

Dr. Brighten: nuance.

That's not sexy, that's not clickable. Exactly. You're right. Like they I failing as a podcast, 

Ben Rein: right? No, you're not. But yeah, that's like, what, that's, I think what the, the pandemic demanded was for someone to come out and say, we have a vaccine. You know? And, you know, and then people are like, they're looking in the [01:28:00] background.

They're like. Wait a minute, this vaccine hasn't actually been tested yet. Like I want to meet like standard requirements and it's not, yeah. And, and actually what the scientists meant on tv, I'm making, this is a fake example, but like, what they actually meant hypothetically was like, we're on our way to a vaccine and we're testing it.

But like, I, I think it was a miscalculation of public health messaging and it was a miscalculation that insulted the average person's intelligence. Mm. Where it was like, if we tell them everything, they're just gonna be confused. So let's just tell them not to wear masks. Yeah. Right. It's like, that's completely wrong.

Transparency is absolutely necessary. And, um, and yeah, I mean we, science lost the perspective of a lot of people, which is, which is sad because the pandemic and the science that had to be done to try to figure out what was happening and what vaccines might work, and all this is not at all representative of how science actually works either.

Mm-hmm. It was a window where everybody started paying attention and, and you know, they were actually reading the news about every scientific development 'cause it, it [01:29:00] mattered to them and their lifestyle and they wanted to get back to like leaving their house. But that's not actually how science works.

Yeah. Science moves much more slowly. It doesn't go to the news until it's a real, like much more certainty when it does, it often conveys nuance. You know, there's not public decision making hanging in the balance of Yeah. Of what the science finds. Uh, and so it's. It's a real shame that it all went that way because um, for a lot of people, they'll never trust science again and mm-hmm.

I mean, I don't know like what to say as a scientist of like, come back like it's, you know, maybe it's, it's not as bad. 

Dr. Brighten: Well, you know, I, so I ended up being first wave COVID. I got severe COVID. I spent four months at home on oxygen. I ended up long haulers. I had, um, doctors who were like, you're faking it for a gen.

And like all this stuff, people making conspiracies about me. Like suddenly, like just conspiracy went around social media where the reason why I was actually sick is 'cause I just got breast implants and that I had breast implant illness and that was the real truth of why I was so sick. And I was like, thank you for [01:30:00] thinking that I've had a baby and that I've had breast implants.

But no, that's not what happened. I hate to tell you this. Um, I was also like, whatcha looking at that even makes you arrive to this? Like, what am I putting on social media? But even me just showing up on social media, talking about my experience, meta totally shut me down. I got shadow banned like crazy.

Just being like, I actually have COVID. And many people were like, this, this is not real. And I'm like, I'm telling you it's real. Meta's like, shut it down. Meta lied, meta lied and said, oh no, we're not shadow banning, we're not doing any of that. Then we, like, we, four or five years later, meta's like we did actually the government asked us to like hide all of your stuff.

I'm like, why is everybody lying so much? And then being like, but still trust us. I wanna ask you though, because like your book is all about how. Brains thrive with social connection. Brains and bodies die. When they get isolated. Their risk of mortality is like skyrocketing. The COVID pandemic [01:31:00] was non-consensual.

Okay. In terms of like what we were all put through. Right. And this is not to blame anyone is a lot of doing the best you could, right? With the information you had. But it was a global experiment. And from the jump when we went into lockdown, I was like, somebody better be taking data here because when in history are we going to do this?

What do you think happened to humans based on the research that you have in your book, going through that kind of global isolation? 

Ben Rein: Okay. Well first off, I mentioned that, you know, loneliness is associated with depression and anxiety. You know, l depression and anxiety went up, right? Mm-hmm. And there's evidence showing that the longer people were, uh, quarantined or whatever, isolated.

Isolated, the worse their depression was. Right? And people who were, um, gosh, what's the word I'm thinking of? Not quarantine, but um. Like the shelter in place basically. Mm-hmm. People had lockdown. Yeah. Lockdown maybe is the word. 

Dr. Brighten: It was literally like what they told us it was. I was in Puerto Rico. They were like, [01:32:00] y'all need to go home.

They sent out this text. They were like, everybody needs to go home and be in your house by this time. And we were out to dinner with a group of friends and I was like, we're not coming back out. We're not coming back out. And there were several doctors in the group one, an ER doctor. He's like, I don't think we're coming back out either.

Yes. And then we went home and then everybody got the text, you are not to leave your house. And I was like, that is not how, and that was like a jumpstart to like Bad move. Yeah, bad move. And then like, we had lots of threats there. Like if you left your house more than two, you could even go out two days a week to get food or medical treatment.

And if you're caught outside based on your license plate, it's six months in jail, $5,000 fine. And I'm like, what do you think this is doing to people like, um, the governor at the time? The world praised her every time she got more strict, the whole world praised her. She made the news everywhere. So what is she gonna wanna do as a human?

Right? I'm getting praised, stricter, stricter, stricter. At one point we were like having to line up in the grocery and follow this exact line, and I [01:33:00] was like, this is a perfect way to catch an infection the way you're isolating our movement. There were just so many things that I was like, as somebody, you're also logical.

I cannot, I cannot handle logical contradictions. Yeah. Like, it makes my whole nervous system like wanna rage where I'm just like, it's like sirens. Um. Right. Anyhow, I just took a tangent and interrupted you. Let's get back to, let's get back to what the expert has to say. Well, uh, 

Ben Rein: so yeah. So I mean, people obviously felt bad, right?

Their depression went up. Um, and Yeah. What I was gonna say is people who, who sheltered in place, I don't know, with people 

Dr. Brighten: what a pretty name for it. With with 

Ben Rein: yeah. With others. Ma managed much better, right? Yeah. Who were locked down alone had much worse mood effects. But the group that I am most concerned about, the outcomes of this COVID period is children.

Dr. Brighten: Yes. 

Ben Rein: Because. S we have what's called this, uh, you know, the social sensitive period where in early life, the first couple years of life, just like, you [01:34:00] know, there's like a, a language, it's a critical period for language, right? Where your brain's really plastic can take in language. And so like children can learn like five languages no problem.

Where as an adult mm-hmm. Like impossible to do that. Trust me, 

Dr. Brighten: I've got a 4-year-old who's completely bilingual and the 40-year-old, the 40 something year old is like trying so hard. Yeah. And I'm like, oh my God, you're, you're preaching to my life right now. 

Ben Rein: Exactly. And it's because the 4-year-old has a much more, you know, a lot more plasticity in the brain.

The brain can less is more receptive to the world around it can change more easily and stuff. Mm-hmm. So they're just, it's biologically easier to learn from, to learn language. There's also a social sensitive period where in early life these social brain areas are taking in information and it's shaping our worldview.

It's shaping our understanding of, you know, what's right and wrong, how people express emotions. Right. We're learning empathy, we're learning, we're basically establishing this like moral structure of the world. 

Dr. Brighten: Mm-hmm. 

Ben Rein: And so if you do not experience [01:35:00] socializing during those early periods, it's possible that basically there you could be missing out on certain important brain shaping.

And so there's a, a specific brain area that seems to be very sensitive to this, which is the prefrontal cortex. I mentioned it before, um, in. Humans. Well, lemme start in mice. Uh, in mice there's studies showing that if mice are isolated in early life, like the first couple weeks of life, when they get to adulthood, they show like immature synapses in the prefrontal cortex, which basically means that neurons are not interacting as effectively.

Um, and so I think what happens is that the, the sort of exercise of interacting, you know, when we interact, it stimulates brain activity. The cells are firing and, and synapses are releasing neurotransmitters. And so the, the synapses that are being used are getting strengthened, new synapses are forming 'cause the cells more active.

Um, there's all sorts of, you know, biology happening, but it's, it's shaping [01:36:00] and developing the brain. Mm-hmm. So with, in the absence of those interactions, it makes sense that you would see immature synapses because they're not sort of exercised as much. Then in humans, it's also been shown that isolated children are also, uh, they show smaller prefrontal cortex, which also would make sense because without that exercise they're not establishing new synapses.

And so there's a reduced vol, uh, volume of this area. So, and also those children show like conduct problems more, more often than not, which makes sense because if they're not establishing a sort of social model of the world of mm-hmm. Oh, if I step on your foot right now, it hurts you, it's bad, then you know, you're more likely to violate others.

Um, 

Dr. Brighten: and, and in the context of what you're talking about with socializing children, is it with children of their own age? Is it other children in general, or is it just being in a family unit enough? Like what are we talking about here? 

Ben Rein: I, I mean, I think any socializing is, is valuable, right? Mm-hmm. Um, but probably more like diversity, like family, [01:37:00] distant, family, cousins, other, you know, classmates.

The more you have, the better. Right. Okay. I think it's, it's all just learning, right? The way I view socializing in early life is it's a learning process. You're just giving examples of different types of ways people present their information, different social cues, different opinions, all sorts of stuff that's, that's important for shaping the child's understanding of the world and their, and their brain too.

Um, and so anyways, I, I think that in the absence of Isolate, or in the absence of interaction for a couple of years during COVID VID, there's probably a, a very major change in like certain generations of kids who went through that. Mm-hmm. And what's interesting too is that. This is anecdotal, but I've heard from many teachers that as soon as they came back to school, when it was actually in person, again, they had way more kids with conduct problems.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. That, and I, there was one teacher who told me this story specifically where, um, this kid would just like, [01:38:00] basically, I, I was actually on Zoom, but it was like they were meeting in person and they had certain classes on Zoom and this certain students would just like unmute and just start talking to each other and like calling the pro the professor names.

And like, and this is college, like the ridiculous thing. Oh, college I was like, is college students? 

Dr. Brighten: Yeah. Like nine year olds. They don't know how to use Zoom, but like 

Ben Rein: Yeah, like college, college freshmen. Oh. And to me it's just, it's concerning. And then, you know, I also think about, now I'm getting like, this is a little bit of a reach, but prefrontal cortex, if socializing helps shape the function of the prefrontal cortex.

Prefrontal cortex is also super involved in attention. Mm-hmm. And executive decision making and stuff 

Dr. Brighten: like functioning as a human overall. Right. Yeah. And being successful. 

Ben Rein: Right. And yeah. Planning all sorts of things, but specifically attention. And so, and, and actually there's, you know, studies showing that, um, in addiction there can be certain areas of the prefrontal cortex that are smaller.

Mm-hmm. And so, theoretically with this reduced volume, with this reduced brain power to control your impulses, you may be more vulnerable to addiction. [01:39:00] Whether that's the cause or the effect, who knows? But you think about how a, a whole generation of children who may have suffered a failure to develop certain brain areas that involve.

Focus and attention, and then all of a sudden cell phones. 

Dr. Brighten: Yeah. 

Ben Rein: Social media, swipe, swipe, swipe, swipe. And so I worry that the pandemic may have been like the perfect neurological trigger to make us so reliant on our phones and so easily sucked into just scrolling and scrolling and scrolling. And you know, I think that it'll be interesting down the road.

Um, I would like to see studies comparing like certain generations of children, those who went through those periods of isolation. Mm-hmm. Which those who didn't, uh, because I think it would be, there, there probably would be some noticeable differences, maybe in brain structure. But, uh, I would start by looking at just like behavioral differences.

Dr. Brighten: Yeah. It's very interesting. I wanna ask you, um, you've had this whole like on your social media, this supplement series, because there is so [01:40:00] much of like, you know, there's people that are like, I'm a, you know, uh, Alzheimer's researcher. I'm like, this supplement does everything for the brain. And then there's some supplements.

I know who you're talking about. Yeah, I know. I've seen it like a thousand times and I'm always like, listen, I love Lion's mane. I love a lion's mane frittata. Like I lived in the Pacific Northwest. I'm all about Lion's Mane. The science isn't totally there yet. Am I still gonna eat it, consume it, uh, put it in my coffee sometimes.

Yeah. I'm gonna totally do it. Um, but I'm doing it knowing that like. This one supplement is not going to prevent Alzheimer's. Like, there's like many, many things that you need to be doing, right? Alzheimer's is complex. But my question is, what supplements do you feel are worth the hype as a neuroscientist?

Ben Rein: Yeah. So that, that's why I created this series is because there's so many, you know, uh, well, I was gonna say prescriptions, that's, I guess the wrong term, but there's so much advice online about mm-hmm. Supplements, and in reality, there's actually a [01:41:00] ton of data on supplements telling you, telling us whether or not they actually do what people claim online.

And so I just wanted to like lay it all out there and, you know, so I'd be going one by one for, those aren't familiar with the series, it just, each video is a different supplement and I analyze all the literature and I basically say, you know, here's what I think it's, or here's what the data says, not even what I think.

Um, so fir when it comes to supplements, first things first. I think supplements work best as supplements when you are supplementing a deficiency. So, agreed. Yeah. Like, I have a vitamin D deficiency, I have a magnesium deficiency. I take those two supplements because what I've learned as a neuroscientist through my experiments where I'm actually going in and manipulating the activity of neurons or various systems, is that it is so much easier to take a deficient biological system and restore its function than it is to take a healthy biological system and augment its function.

Mm-hmm. Like. It's unbelievable. There have been, like, for example, in my studies, we will do things where it's like we find a certain brain area that's like less [01:42:00] active and the mice are also less social. And so we go in and we stimulate that brain area and the mice become more social. So we are taking it the deficit and we're restoring it.

So you might think then that if we go in and we stimulate that brain area, that the mice become that to mice that don't have a deficit, they all become more social too, not at all. Mm-hmm. And that, and that happens on all levels. Like that's a behavioral example, but also like, you know, like this protein interacts with this protein, so if you turn this one up, you might turn this one up.

Nope. Only if it's deficient, you know, then they both go up. But if it's, if it's healthy, it doesn't influence this thing. So yeah, taking a system that is already functioning well and trying to supplement more, more often than not, is not gonna do anything. But with that said, there are certain supplements that that do.

And so my sort of, uh, favorites are the ones that are like most supported by data. Are omega threes, so I can't name all of them off the top of my head, but there are so many benefits to omega threes. Um, and gosh, I, I can't remember right now. I have a video on this that explains it very well. This often happens to me where I [01:43:00] read the literature and I explain it in the video and then give us a 

Dr. Brighten: video.

We'll link it in the show notes. 

Ben Rein: Okay. I'll, I'll send it to you. Perfect. People can 

Dr. Brighten: see it 

Ben Rein: because there's, there's multiple forms of omega threes and one of them one form. Like, because you can have omega threes that are like higher in one version than the other DHA 

Dr. Brighten: versus EPA. 

Ben Rein: Yeah. And I forget which one.

I think it, I think, gosh, it'll be in the video, but one having a higher dose of one than the other is a better, um, is more associated with lower risk of dementia. Mm-hmm. And others are better for like heart conditions. Um, but those are like very solid. I also take an Omega-3 whenever I try, or whenever I 

Dr. Brighten: Is your wife taking Omega-3?

Ben Rein: Uh, she's taking a prenatal right now, which probably has a, it does have, yeah. Both of those, 

Dr. Brighten: my sons like, people will be like, oh, they should play football, which sometimes they mean American football and sometimes they mean soccer. Uh, and I always joke that I choke down way too much omegas during my pregnancy to have them compromise their brain.

Yeah. 

Ben Rein: Right. Honestly. So aside from those, um, I also do like magnesium. Mm-hmm. I [01:44:00] also like magnesium is the only supplement that I personally take that I'm like, wow, this is noticeable. 

Dr. Brighten: Mm-hmm. 

Ben Rein: Um, and I take it at night for sleep and. A lot of people do too. There's evidence showing that, you know, people who take, especially for those with insomnia, magnesium can help improve the, the duration of sleep.

It can help people basically sleep a little bit longer and fall asleep faster. Mm-hmm. Um, again, I have a magnesium deficiency. When I take magnesium, I sleep way better. No question about it. I, I can't promise that the average person will experience that, but they may so love magnesium specifically at night.

Um, I take it like an hour before bed and I'd get like noticeably drowsy. Okay, so this is a interesting one. Saffron. So saffron is there, there is like unbelievable evidence suggesting that it could be anti an antidepressant. Mm-hmm. Um, there's some skepticism around it. 

Dr. Brighten: I'm just gonna say that Saffron [01:45:00] literally is something that saved my mental health.

Really. I had to be on Lupron injections, which put me into like chemical menopause like that. I took these Lupron injections for my endometriosis. Super stupid in re retrospectively would never have done it. At the time. Three doctors told me this was the best thing. I never respected the cognitive change that menopausal women go through when they lose estrogen to the degree I did when I experienced it.

And I, like, I, I did a bunch of research on things 'cause I was even doing add-back therapy of like. I'm just gonna put on an estradiol patch. I'm gonna take progesterone at night. And I was like, this is not enough. I am so sad. I am we people all the time. Brain fog so bad. I bought multiple of the same Christmas presents and wrapped them.

So expensive. Most expensive time of my life. Um, anyhow, but Staffron was one that I was like, if it wasn't for Saffron, I think I would've lost like my mind. Like, just in [01:46:00] terms of like, also, like, I didn't even know until I started Saffron how much it helped with hot flashes as well. Hmm. 

Ben Rein: Interesting. But 

Dr. Brighten: you were saying Saffron's super controversial.

Ben Rein: Well, it's, it's not super controversial. I mean, here's the thing. When you look at the data, if you go to the PubMed and you search Saffron and you look at the data mm-hmm. There are a bunch of studies showing that it is really powerful effects on depression. That people, when they take saffron, they show all these like tremendous remission of depressive symptoms, they feel way better.

Mm-hmm. When compared directly to SSRIs. It sometimes even outperforms SSRIs. By the way, St. John's wart is another one that's like that. Um. Also just a, just a like medical note that some of these can have complications taken with other medicines in general, 

Dr. Brighten: St. John's war and birth control, don't mess with it unless you wanna have a baby.

And then you can also get photosensitivity with St. John's warts so your skin can be more reactive to the sun. So 

Ben Rein: interesting. 

Dr. Brighten: Those are big ones to definitely know. 

Ben Rein: Yeah. I've heard that, that St. John's work can sort of, uh, reduce the efficacy of other medications in general. [01:47:00] Mm-hmm. But also if taken with SSRIs that it can be harmful.

Also, saffron, I believe with, uh, pregnancy, there's like a study that pregnant women in a field where, like working in a saffron field where a higher rate of miscarriage anyways, so, you know, with any supplement, right? Like there's no doctor telling you, Hey, these are the complications, like they would with the prescriptions.

Mm-hmm. Please always you should look online and make sure that there's, um, nothing to worry about, but also 

Dr. Brighten: talk to your pharmacist if you're filling a prescription. Yeah. Pharmacists understand drug, nutrient and drug, uh, herb interactions better than your doctor will. Um, dieticians as well are another resource.

Most average doctors have no clue about supplements. They're just told they're always bad. And don't tell and tell people not to take 'em because that's like the safe, um, default. But leveraging your pharmacists, they're super st super brilliant people that can help. 

Ben Rein: Yeah. Yeah. So the thing about Saffron though, um.

And I didn't know this, or I didn't realize this until I started talking about it on social media and people, uh, mentioned on social media. So in Iran, saffron is like the number one export or [01:48:00] something like that. Mm-hmm. Or like the, the number one country that exports saffron is Iran, something along those lines.

It's heavily exported by. Iran and all of the studies that I saw about Saffron and its mood benefits were all done in Iran. Mm-hmm. And so the, you know, this is one of those where it's like there could be, you know, a sort of incentive, right? Yeah. Because there's all these studies that it's antidepressant, then, you know, it boosts sales and helps Iran as a country.

Yeah. And so these scientists maybe, whatever, who knows? You never know what's going on in the background. That's sort of a like conspiratorial perspective. The other like maybe more sensible perspective is that they're just studying it because it's the number one export. And so it's on the mind of people in this country and scientists too.

Um, it 

Dr. Brighten: makes me wonder, I wanna check the studies now because there have been studies saying you, when you use an SSRI, like one of the big, uh, side effects that nobody talks about and everybody hates is las lack of sexual DI desire and an orgasm inability to achieve an orgasm. And there have been studies showing if you take Saffron with that, it can help mitigate that side effect [01:49:00] of an SSRI, which I always bring up in the conversation.

'cause I think a lot of people like to be either or where they're like. Only use drugs or they're like, no, use the supplement drugs are bad. And it's like, well, maybe you're on an SSRI and you can actually do things so that you mitigate those side effects. Because sometimes, you know, people are on a medication and it really is working for the, the, their objective then, then they're having all these side effects.

So I always think it's wise to look at like, how can we lower the side effect? If you're getting the intended effect, but you're having these side effects, how can we lower that? But now I'm like, hmm, I should look, is that study out of Iran where they're like, this helps? Mm. 

Ben Rein: Yeah. It's funny 'cause that's another one of those dilemmas where supplements versus prescription drugs.

Mm-hmm. There's often this sort of like division where people who love taking supplements, they're like, oh, I only use supplements. I don't take prescription drugs. Mm-hmm. People who take prescription drugs are like, oh, I don't even mess around with supplements. But like in reality, you know, supplements are just prescription drugs that have not been regulated yet if like studied well enough to cross over into this threshold, right?

Mm-hmm. So like [01:50:00] there's a, there's a blend of allowing the evidence to lead and there's some medications that are, you know, prescription and, you know, are not extremely effective. They're effective for some people but not others. Yeah. I mean, at Saffron I will say, I, I, when I read these studies, I was like, this is wild.

I'm not. Diagnosed with depression, I generally have a pretty good mood. Mm-hmm. But I did take Saffron for a little while after that just to see, and I actually did feel like I felt a little bit better. How much were you taking? Uh, gosh, I don't know. It's somewhere in my medicine. Kevin, I couldn't tell you.

I'm just 

Dr. Brighten: asking because like when I went through this whole Lupron thing, like I kept coming across supplements that were like 15 milligrams, but all the research is like 28 to 30. And so I was really frustrated that I was like having to double things. 'cause I'm like, if the research is saying hit 30, then I want the therapeutic dose on the, but I was just curious, like anecdotally, like did you feel better at like 10 15 or what was the mark for you?

Ben Rein: I definitely remember report back. Yeah. Whatever dose I did, it was based on the studies that I had seen that I was trying to fall within. Like the Yeah. Sort of. Because generally what I see in the literature is [01:51:00] that when there's studies looking at supplements, they all use like roughly the same dose.

Dr. Brighten: Yeah. 

Ben Rein: Um, and 

Dr. Brighten: that's the thing about the Saffron is, is like 28 to 30 milligrams. I'm like, is that two milligrams making a difference? Yeah. Like I have a big question mark here for that. 

Ben Rein: Absolutely. For sure. I mean, I think that's a, that's the other thing about like supplements in general and it, and the big question mark that everyone always brings up is like, you buy a supplement, it says it's Saffron.

Mm-hmm. Is it actually Saffron? Right. Um, and people don't have like these drug testing kits at home to test for saffron. Yeah. Um, so it may say 30 milligrams of Saffron, it's actually four milligrams of Saffron, and then the rest 

Dr. Brighten: is. 

Ben Rein: Whoever, you know, whatever the heck is in there. 

Dr. Brighten: Yeah, yeah. That's where third party testing.

Ben Rein: Yeah. 

Dr. Brighten: And verifying it is really important. So I wanna hear from you, I read your book. I wanna know, what is your intention with putting a book out about how, I mean, I love the title of it, but how community is so important to longevity, to, uh, you know, preventing adverse outcomes. What is your goal and [01:52:00] what was your passion, your desire?

Like you only write books if you can't not write the book. As an author, I say that like, it is the most taxing, uh, event of your life. You're like, you're about to have a baby. You'll still find the book writing process harder. I'm sure. And so with that said, like what made it where you were like, I have to write this book, I have to get this out there.

People need this information. 

Ben Rein: Yeah. I mean, I've been working as a neuroscientist for a decade now, doing research, you know, and all my research has always had something to do with interaction. You know, my first study I ever did in undergrad was looking at, uh, an interpersonal intervention for suicide prevention.

Mm-hmm. So teaching, training students to, you know, recognize when someone may be suicidal and intervene and help with them, you know. And then in my PhD I started studying autism spectrum disorder and the biology. And then in my postdoc at Stanford, I studied empathy. And so I've always been in this sort of realm of social behavior.

And I just think that experience that this decade of my life has [01:53:00] totally transformed the way that I just. View the world naturally, right? Mm-hmm. This is, your medical training has completely changed the way that you see the world. And what it has afforded me is a deep and genuine appreciation for a, how complex our brains are and the what the socializing it allows us to do.

And also, b, how important that is for our health and wellbeing. And so, you know, in a, what I call a post interaction world where we're, we're spending less time interacting with this loneliness epidemic. You know, this all the data, there's so much evidence for it. You know how much time we spend alone?

Like from 2013 to 2022, I believe the number of hours people spend per month alone went up by 36 hours per month. 

Dr. Brighten: Wow. 

Ben Rein: We're spending a work week alone that we didn't use to, like, there's just, there's so much data, it's all pointing in the wrong direction. And my concern is I see why this matters. And the US surgeon general from the last administration was like, Hey, this matters.

But I don't think people really like get it or care. And even [01:54:00] since there's been a public shift in how we talk about it and recognize it, I still haven't noticed like anything changing. And so my goal with the book was to like this, imagine if nobody knew that sleep, like not getting enough sleep was bad for you.

And then a book came out that was like, here's why you not getting enough sleep is bad for you. Like, that's kind of what I'm hoping my book is. It's obviously not only about that, it, it's like, you know why brains need friends. It's about why socializing is important, but it also, um. Truth be told, that whole conversation is really only the first, maybe, I don't know, 60 pages or so.

And then the rest of the book is like taking that knowledge that I've gained and, and sharing with you, and then placing it into context of all these different situations in real life and, and like all these different things that, that I think about that matter. So like there's a, a chapter on drugs and how they influence our social brain.

There's a chapter on dogs and how they can be important for, you know, supplementing interaction. There's a chapter on likability and the scientific factors associated with likability. And so I'm, I'm really just [01:55:00] trying to encapsulate my understanding that has changed my life and my, my perspective of, of interaction and put it all in one book.

And most important of all, make it accessible. You know, I'm sure you appreciated my first page as the no big words clause. It's like, there should be, there's no reason for jargon. It's unnecessary. Like this book is for everybody. Um, and so I genuinely hope that people will, you know, A, read it and b, find that it, it shifts the way that they, uh, process their daily encounters with others.

And maybe just maybe it will make them want to incorporate a few more encounters, of course, to the level that makes them comfortable and does not exceed it. 

Dr. Brighten: People who implement what is in the book, how can their life be transformed over the next five years? 

Ben Rein: I mean, immediate mood benefits right? To socializing.

I think it. It is easy enough to be like, oh, I don't have to read this book. I'm just gonna go socialize with my friends. And that's fine too. You know? No, nobody has to read the book. But I think what, what I try to do in the book is [01:56:00] explain, like taking this broad prescription of socializing and actually making it make sense for you and understand like, where do you stand on this level of introversion, extroversion?

Like what sort of social interactions are important for you? Um, and so I think in doing so and being very intentional and thoughtful about how we are, the social lives we are living and the social diet, we're feeding ourselves, ourselves, that I think we can a immediately experience, mood, benefits, um, you know, which may benefit, you know, anxiety, depression, all sorts of things, right?

There's all these benefits associated with being more socially connected. But in the long run, I mean, being isolated increases the risk of, of like Alzheimer's and dementia, for example, and isolated seniors with dementia, their memory declines twice as fast as those who are not isolated. So depending on where you're at in life, you know, if you're like in your sixties or seventies and you're super isolated, then within the next five years, I mean, you could be talking about a dramatic difference in your brain health if you're in, if you're, I mean, if you're five years old, I guess probably this book is [01:57:00] maybe too, too high of a level for you.

But you know, if you're at that, but 

Dr. Brighten: your parents could read this book, if you're 

Ben Rein: at the, if you're the parent of a 5-year-old and you start implementing more social interactions, then it may change, you know, the next five year window, it may change the development of your brain. Who knows? But I think for anybody, I'm just, I'm hoping that people will read this and, uh.

Broaden their viewpoint of their current life and just start, I can't even explain it well enough, which I should be able to, but like starting to see the daily happenings of our lives completely differently, where it's like, oh, like, well, you know what? You ever have the experience where you could just walk outside to check what the temperature is?

Mm-hmm. But instead you check the temperature on your phone. 

Dr. Brighten: Yeah. 

Ben Rein: Like, it's like that. We do that all the time. I also don't 

Dr. Brighten: trust myself. Uh, I'm someone who's like, if it's 72 degrees, I'm like, it's so hot. Yeah, true, true. 

Ben Rein: But that, but that convenience, right? Where it's like, yeah, we have thermo receptors on our bodies to tell us what [01:58:00] temperature it is.

Instead, I'm gonna check my phone. It's like that, like, you know, I could go meet with my friend in person, but instead I'm gonna just give them a call. Like, well, why, like, do it in person, you know? Or, you know, I could go to the grocery store instead, I'm gonna order groceries. Like, I, I hope people will start to see interactions less as inconveniences and more as.

Like a health sustaining feature. Mm. That we are lucky to experience in our everyday life. And, and when you have that too, I think it also sort of transforms your relationship with that part of your life where, you know, I, my book's not out yet, candidly at the time of this recording, but, 

Dr. Brighten: and I got to read it already.

Yeah. I feel so special. Well, and so few 

Ben Rein: people have read it and thank you for reading it genuinely. And the people who have read it have said that, that basically they're like, wow, like, you know, when I'm standing in line at the grocery store now, I'll like start a conversation with the person next to me.

And like, I feel so much better. And I, that's exactly what I'm hoping will happen, is that we will start to sort of once again en mesh with each other and form connections and feel connected to our communities that the, [01:59:00] the. Sense of belonging, we experience is actually tied to real meaningful in-person connections versus like these horrible dividing moments we experience online, which are becoming a increasingly large part of our lives.

Dr. Brighten: Mm-hmm. So, well, the book is fantastic. I literally couldn't stop writing questions. There were so many things from this book that I wanted to talk to you about that I think I have like 30 questions we didn't even get to. I can talk to you all day. We're gonna bring you back. You're gonna have a baby first.

My wife is, but you're gonna be there as a support system, which will give time for more research to come out as well. Yeah. So I wanna encourage everybody put your questions down so that we can come have you back and have another conversation. But for now, I have to say thank you so very much for writing this book, putting this out into the world and for sharing your time with us.

Ben Rein: Thank you so much for having me and for your interest in the book genuinely, you know, especially at this stage where the book's not out yet and I don't know what people think of it. Your enthusiasm actually means a lot to me. Genuinely. Oh, so, so thank you. And [02:00:00] it's, it's been an honor. 

Dr. Brighten: Yeah. Thank you so much for joining the conversation.

 

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