Diet for ADHD: How Nutrition Shapes Focus, Mood, and Brain Health | Timothy Frie

Dr. Brighten: [00:00:00] Welcome back to the Dr. Brighton Show. I'm your host, Dr. Jolene Brighton. I'm board certified in Naturopathic endocrinology, a nutrition scientist, a certified sex counselor, and a certified menopause specialist. As always, I'm bringing you the latest, most UpToDate information to help you take charge of your health and take back your hormones.

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Don't forget to subscribe, leave a comment, or share this with a friend because it helps this podcast get out to everyone who needs it. Alright, let's dive in. Is what mothers are eating, causing their children to become autistic? 

Tim Frie: I think would, would be a pretty strong statement to say that what a mother is eating is causing autism.

There's no doubt that the food that we eat plays a role in sending instructions to our DNA, the food, you know, especially during, uh, human development and during embryonic growth is really important to how we become humans and what we look like and what our. How our health is shaped and what happens in our bodies.

Um, so, you know, I, I wanna say like food definitely makes a difference in neurodevelopment. Food definitely makes a difference in how different traits in genes are expressed, but I don't really think it's fair to say or blame a mother's diet on their child [00:02:00] developing autism or really any sort of neurodevelopmental disease.

It would probably be more fair to say that diet and nutrition play a role in neurodevelopment and sometimes the food, the. Environment that we exist in and our internal food environment can send different instructions and information to different cells that cause them to do different things and express genes in different ways, and sometimes, uh, results in the neurodevelopmental patterns and characteristics that we see with autism.

Dr. Brighten: Are there particular nutrients or anywhere in the studies, you know, that you've seen that say like, consuming X, Y, and Z can be helpful, or, if you eat this nutrient, this could be harmful while someone's pregnant? In terms of the, the conversation of Neurodivergence. 

Tim Frie: Yeah, it's really kind of all over the place.

I'm not really comfortable saying like, it's this particular nutrient or it's this particular dietary pattern. There's certainly not enough information about that yet, but, um, we do know that child or maternal [00:03:00] malnutrition is a risk factor for a host of different neurodevelopmental and neuropsychiatric diseases and all sorts of chronic diseases and autoimmunity and all sorts of things.

So, um, you know, one thing that comes to mind is the importance of Omega-3 fatty acids and, um, you know, forming myelin and, uh, neural tube development and just, uh, you know, other nutrients like, uh, vitamin C that's really important for antioxidant, um, reactions in the brain. And, uh, vitamin E those are also is, is also a really important antioxidant during human development.

So I think at the end of the day, it really just comes down to ensuring that a mother or, you know, someone who, who, um, is, is going to be giving birth to a child that they have the neuro nutritional, that they have their neuro nutritional needs met. And that's gonna look a little bit different for everyone.

But, um, yeah, 

Dr. Brighten: I think you, what you brought up is really important because you talked about not having enough nutrients, not having enough macros [00:04:00] and micronutrients during pregnancy to nourish yourself and nourishing developing fetus. We are seeing a lot of talk about food stamps, um, being revamped, taking away ultra processed food, making sure that, uh, we are getting education about how to actually feed ourselves in the context of that conversation.

What do you. Think people are missing when it comes to talking about this critical window of development as as we are infants in utero. 

Tim Frie: Hmm. Yeah, I think the biggest thing that we're missing is, uh, the larger pers a larger perspective of what's called our food environment. And all of us have a different food environment.

The food environment is the terrain and all the different variables and factors that play a role in our food decisions and the food that's available to us and the different flavors and, uh, different cuisines that are available to us. Most of the variables within the food [00:05:00] environment are structural or systemic.

They're, uh, connected to politics and public policy. And there are things that we can't always individually control. We certainly have influence as individuals over the choices to a certain degree. I would say there's neurobiological underpinnings there that we don't control. It's mostly unconscious, but, um, all of us have some degree of individual control over the food that we eat or don't eat.

But we don't often account for the reality that most people are. Living within a food environment that is shaped by things that are completely outside of their control. So if you take a mother who is living in what would be classified as like a low socioeconomic area, maybe she is working a job that, um, you know, is, you know, considered a, a poverty wage or even a slightly above poverty wage, thinking about where she might live, financial demands, life demands.

There's a lot of things happening, even just right there and the things I just described that can influence someone's capacity to prepare healthy [00:06:00] meals. Do, did this person ever get taught how to, how to prepare healthy meal? Do what's their nutritional literacy? What do they have access to? So, um, you know, I think the, what's what's really missing from this conversation is that it's not about focusing on eating one specific nutrient.

And yes, we do know that there are certain nutrients that are important for neural development, but um, it's really about understanding how to meet your nutritional needs. In ways that are within your means and within your capacity, given your food environment. 

Dr. Brighten: Mm-hmm. What impact do you think our food environment is having on our health within the United States?

I. 

Tim Frie: Our, our food environment within the United States is killing us. It's really, it's, it's, it is having a significant impact. I think, um, you know, we have for, for, for decades sort of, um, abdicated the responsibility of what do we eat? Where does the food come from, how do we learn what to eat to the government and to these other systemic [00:07:00] institutions.

So, you know, like the food guidelines for example, it's great that there are scientists and groups available that come together to research, uh, you know. What we actually need to eat and then give us that information. But, uh, a lot of people are just kind of blindly taking in this information because, uh, we've never been given a constructive opportunity to learn what nutrition actually means or what that is, or how do we meet our nutritional needs within ways that are within our means.

Um, you know, one thing that that really comes to mind also when I think about this conversation is, um, you know, school lunches and how a lot of parents, a lot of parents rely on those school lunches to meet their child's nutritional needs, but parents don't really have much influence, um, over what's in those lunches or what's made available at schools because most of those decisions are happening at the policy or government level.

So that's one of those examples of, you know, those are, there are things within our food environment that we just can't control. And, you know, [00:08:00] the, if we zoom out even, even further, I think in America right now, there is just, you know, it's this culture of. Capitalism and just working and making as much money as possible.

And the majority of us have no choice but to dedicate our life to ensuring that our financial needs are met and that we have economic security. And we expend so much cognitive energy in America on meeting our basic human needs. And we don't have much cognitive reserve or cognitive power left over to plan meals and organized meals and grocery shop and eat, you know, some of us.

So, um, you know, I think that the food environment is, you know, it's an inevitable part of life. Most of us are unaware of it, but we're all affected by it. 

Dr. Brighten: Mm-hmm. It's a pretty bold statement to say that our nutrition in the United States is killing us. I would agree. But what would you say to critics who are like, that's fear mongering.

That is just, you know, blowing a [00:09:00] situation out of proportion because, you know, in our lifetime we have definitely been a part of the conversations with physicians who say nutrition doesn't matter. Why would it matter? Nutrition plays no impact on health, which is honestly, I mean, 20 years ago I was like, this is the craziest thing to hear some come out of someone's mouth who is supposed to be a highly intelligent individual, understanding health, and yet it was indoctrination.

They were indoctrinated to believe this one way. 

Tim Frie: Yeah. You know, I don't, I don't really think it's fearmongering to state the reality that we know that about 70% of the deaths in this country are preventable. And I do think it would be reductionist to say, well that's solely due to food. That statistic, seven outta 10 deaths come from preventable cause or are due to preventable causes in the US It's due to lifestyle factors and nutrition is one of those lifestyle factors.

So, um, you know, I think that it's, it's, it's, it's both, you know, it's not only food that is [00:10:00] driving disease in this country and I think that is where we've been really reductionist and where we're kind of losing sight of the bigger picture here because, you know, there's now this entire industry that's built around fearmongering with food and they need to tell us that food is the ultimate driver of disease.

It is one variable. That's true. We know that, you know, nutrition. I think what's really important for us to, to. Define is, is what nutrition actually is. It's not the food that you eat or how often you eat. That's, that's your diet. So you know what, what, how often you eat your food preferences, the types of food that you're eating, that's your diet.

Nutrition is the fundamental material basis of our existence. You know, like it is a cell science. Our cells cannot live. We would not be here if it were not for nutrition. And I think that in America especially, we don't really understand the significance of that and understand the significance of nutrition.

So I think for us to grasp the true impact [00:11:00] of malnutrition and food insecurity and nutritional literacy, we have to first understand what nutrition actually is. And I don't think most people, most people do. 

Dr. Brighten: Well. Would you say that maybe that's by design? 

Tim Frie: Totally. It's, it's totally by design. I think that there's, you know, we could trace this back for, you know.

We could even go into other societies and, you know, we could go back thousands of years, but, um, you know, it is no conspiracy that, um, a lot of the, or I would say the majority of food policy in America is intentionally crafted to keep people in power and power and allow people who have control to stay in control.

And I don't think it's a conspiracy either to see how a lot of the industry around food and a lot of the industry around nutrition have played together to make it this way. This the, the issue of, you know, nutritional illiteracy and, and food insecurity and food apartheid [00:12:00] is. It's optional. It is not something that has to exist.

And um, unfortunately all of us as individuals and communities have sort of blamed ourselves. It's like, okay, well we need to solve this problem. Like I need to figure this out. I need to get it together. And again, our individual choices and behaviors absolutely influence our health, but we also need to learn how to take care of ourselves within these systems that are not designed for us to actually take care of ourselves Then.

Dr. Brighten: Hmm. You said food apartheid, I don't think a lot of people know what that is. Can you define that for people? 

Tim Frie: Yeah, I mean, I think the simplest definition would be the intentional use of food to impact a population in a negative way. Um, you know, it could be as far as, you know, on, on one end of the spectrum, it's like we're intentionally going to keep food from you, so you cannot reproduce.

Um, it's like eugenics, you know, we can keep food from you so you cannot live and be healthy and, and accomplish your goals because we need you to. Not do that for whatever reason [00:13:00] due to the role you serve in society or what have you. And then, um, on the other end of that, which is a little less explicit, and it's just basically more the cultural perspective of like, well, you know, some people who work certain jobs who only work certain wages they shouldn't be able to afford, like, you know, organic food and grass fed beef, which is ridiculous.

You know, we've all kind of been, you know, indoctrinated, as you said earlier, into these beliefs about food, um, which is also part of our food environment. You know, the culture that surrounds food. And you know, one thing I see a lot of, um, especially in like the intuitive eating space or the anti-D diet space, is this notion that food.

Does not have any moral value. And I just completely disagree with that. Food absolutely does have moral value. Um, I think it would be more accurate to say that the moral value assigned to certain foods and to certain diets and to certain ways of eating have become weaponized and they've become stigmatized, and they're used to control and influence people.

Dr. Brighten: You're gonna have to unpack that saying that food does [00:14:00] have moral value. I know a lot of eyebrows just went up. Yeah. 

Tim Frie: Yeah. Well, I mean, it's, it's, you know, one of my friends, uh, Sasha Aparicio, she's a nutritional anthropologist from Guatemala. We had a conversation about this and, you know, I asked her how she felt about that statement.

Um, you know, he, he, every, every culture, every, you know, there's many also religions and spiritual practices that assign of some sort of moral or cultural significance to certain foods or different practices of eating, different ways of eating. So I think to say food has no moral value, kind of disregards all of that.

You know, it's like, well this is just insignificant. Um, to some people, the moral value of food. It is important to them. Right. Um, here in America though, um, what we're seeing with, you know, this, this Maha movement and this ingroup and outgroup division that is just becoming so ubiquitous and pervasive and and harmful here, food is weaponized and we allow food and dietary practices to become weaponized because they have some sort of moral value underpinning [00:15:00] that, you know, some sort of cultural significance of what it means to eat a certain way or to eat certain foods.

So, you know, I wish that food had no moral value. Um, I don't believe that food should ever be used to discriminate or stigmatize or stereotype people or, or any of these things. But the reality is that food absolutely does have a moral value here. And it's more accurate to say that the moral value assigned to these foods is, is being, um, used as leverage to, to harm people.

Dr. Brighten: Mm-hmm. And, you know, you brought up the Maha, you've, you've talked about how people have essentially said like, well, if you aren't of a socio certain socioeconomic class, then like, you shouldn't really be pursuing organic. You shouldn't have access to grass fed. That shouldn't be something you worry about.

These are two opposite ends of the political spectrum, and I think that they both have good intentions in terms of the information that they're getting and what they want to accomplish to improve health. Or, you know, as the, the narrative goes of [00:16:00] like, you know, don't talk to poor people about, um, ultra processed food because you're just shaming them.

You and I have both benefited from the government programs that allow people to have access to food who are at a low income. So for people listening, I was a recipient of snap. I'm very grateful for that program and having access to food. And I always found it to be the most condescending narrative is to say that because I am having a hard time paying for food, acquiring food, therefore I shouldn't have the education around food.

I shouldn't be talked to about my food because you know, that's just gonna make me feel shame and, and guilt. And I think you and I actually corresponded on this on social media and I said, I think this has far less to do with the individual they're speaking about and more to do with their discomfort about poverty and their discomfort with facing the reality that we live within a society that [00:17:00] isn't set up for everyone to thrive.

And I think a lot of times when you see that conversation coming out, firstly, I. It, you know, it, it's the same of like, you don't get to speak for another race. You don't get to speak for, you know, someone who's in poverty. Like, you don't get to be their savior or speak for them. You need to center their voices and listen to them.

And when, you know, as someone who's worked in, you know, I, I've worked, uh, volunteering in wic, senior nutrition program, snap. When you listen to these voice, these people are the most hungry to understand how do I leverage nutrition to have better health? How do I leverage nutrition? Like they want that information.

And you know, it's something that I always find really troubling. Um, that's end of the spectrum and the other end of the spectrum where like we see everything being villainized, right? I mean, there are people who. And the algorithm favors them. So shame on you. Meta like this isn't your problem. You're creating, you're literally creating this problem [00:18:00] of like, kale will kill you.

Oh, it's the most unhealthy thing you could eat. Um, don't eat nuts. You are going to die. And I'm like, really? In the context of the US and the problems we face, you think a whole food is what is going to like unlive us all like beef real be for real. 

Tim Frie: Yeah. Yeah. I just absolutely Yes to everything you just said.

You know, I also grew up in the first 10, 11 years of my life, ironically, grew up on my great-grandfather's defunct farm. Um, my family lived in poverty. I mean, the house that we lived in was completely dilapidated. It was overrun with insects and rodents and, um, you know, there was another farm that was right behind us.

And, you know, I used to run outside and get sprayed by the crop duster and saturate myself and all those chemicals. And, uh, you know, we were 

Dr. Brighten: all, all of the older generation, the DDT kids, they're like, nom their head with you right now. 

Tim Frie: Yeah. Like, that was, that was fun. Um, you know, it's, you know, I, I just think it's wild that, well, I think this [00:19:00] conversation is a great exhibit of how there absolutely is moral value associated with food and the food that we eat in our dietary practices.

Um, you know, my mom, when she initially went to the state social services department to apply for, for food stamps. My, you know, my dad at the time was making minimum wage. My mom was working two jobs, minimum wage, full-time, working like 70 hours a week, and. They were over the income limit by like $10 or something like that.

And she was told, we'll, go sell your car, um, by the person working there. And my mom was like, well, if I sell my car, I'm not gonna be able to go to work, which is gonna further, you know, make, make life difficult. So we relied a lot on, um, church, food banks and um, local food banks. And my grandparents would actually ship us boxes of food in the mail.

And it was a lot of, you know, like hamburger helper and, you know, chips and canned goods, you know, things that were, it was great to have sustenance, you know, and that's important. And at the time that was [00:20:00] how we met our, I don't think we're really meeting our nutritional needs, but it's how we consumed enough energy to continue to live and exist as human beings.

Um, but you know, those, those 10 years was also, I. You know, you think about developmental age for me, you think about, um, you know, all the trauma that that was going on in my life. Aside from all these things, how do all of these different neurobiological, um, consequences of these life experiences that we're having, how does that shape your mind and your brain and your body?

And, um, I think a lot of people who have not been in that situation don't really know what it's like. It's, you know, my parents were not lazy. They did not need to work harder. They did not need more discipline. They were the hardest working moose disciplined people I had ever met. And would still say that to this day.

They did everything that they could to make sure that we had something to eat. And a lot of times that meant asking for help, um, because they still needed to make sure that our lights stayed on, which sometimes they didn't. And they still needed to make sure that we had, you know, gas money and all of these [00:21:00] things.

But for people who haven't been in that situation, I think it's really easy to say, well, you know, just work harder, whatever. Um, and then I've also seen. You know, people who were in that situation and they come out of it and they get really rooted in the classism of like, well, I made it through that because of my hard work and all, everything that I did, and you should just, you know, have suffer and figure it out too.

And that's just not my perspective of the world. Like, I don't see things like that. I don't see people that way. I see this as, uh, you know, like I said earlier, this is an intentional problem that exists by design. The reasons behind it are disgusting and sinister. And, uh, at the end of the day, we don't really get very far arguing with each other on Twitter or Instagram about, you know, who's worthy, worthy to eat or who's not worthy to eat.

I think even put that way, it's like, yeah, it's kind of the core of that argument. It's like, no, you should have access to food, but you shouldn't. Where did that belief come from? Like, how have we been conditioned to, to even think that way? [00:22:00] 

Dr. Brighten: It's capitalism. Uh, it's, you know, I think, you know, as somebody who's an entrepreneur who is a first generation college grad, like there's a lot of ways in which I have benefited, benefited from capitalism.

Um, absolutely. But I do also think we need to stay really mindful in the hyper individualism that is bred into us within the United States. Um, and we forget how important community is. You know, we're talking a lot about food today, but community is an absolutely critical factor in our health. And when you look at places like Blue Zones, I always raise an eyebrow when they're like, it's just what they eat.

And I'm like, look at their community. Look at their community. And there's also. I think it's really important for people to understand knowing that if you fall down, somebody's there to lend you a hand to help you get back up. What that does to your mental health, your physical health. You have better nervous system regulation when you know you have that aspect of community.

And we don't [00:23:00] necessarily have that in the us. I wanna go back to the conversation about neuro difference. We took like a tangent and I loved it. So, um, and I hope everybody listening did too, but I wanna come back to it and I, you know, you brought up school lunches. What's happening there? You talked about your first 10 years, um, you know, being in that critical developmental window and the nutrients you had access to and maybe didn't have access to.

There is a lot of attention right now on the rise of autism and A DHD in children. And so we talked about, you know, mom's nutrition might influence. You know how Neurodivergence develops, but it's not the cause We are not at a place in the science to say it's a cause. What role do you think nutrition in schools or nutrition even at home during our, our younger years?

I'm like this, I say this, I'm like, I kind of sound like an old lady, like the, the [00:24:00] younger, the youngins. Um, but what impact do you think that's having on neurodivergent children in the context of their symptom expression? 

Tim Frie: Yeah, that's a really good question. Well, you know, kind of going back to food environment.

So what are the variables that influence the way that we think about food, interact with food? I think before we start talking about specific nutrients and how these things might influence neural development and, you know, different personality traits and emotional regulation and things like that, we need to talk about.

How we come to think about food in the first place. So, um, you know, part of the food environment is also the familial culture or community culture surrounding food. If you were born into a family, kinda like mine, where your, your parents, um, you know, they, they're, they're working nonstop. Their stress levels are high.

They have a history of addiction. Uh, maybe there's domestic violence or some sort of other trauma happening. All of these life experiences, their attachment that you have with your, your parents, your [00:25:00] relationship to your teachers and your caregivers, that's shaping your neurobiology. And your body is always looking for some sense of safety.

It's called neuroception, how your body is assessing, am I safe? Is there a threat, is there danger? And if you spend a lot of time in a danger response or a threat response. All of that is driven by different things happening in the brain and different things happening with different hormones and over time, chronic exposure to the neurobiological comp, complicate or neurobiological implications of stress or to a traumatic event.

It has a direct impact on your executive functioning. So your ability to like plan and prepare meals. So connecting this back to your question, okay, how has a caregiver's life experiences and their neurobiological state, how does that influence their ability to take care of their child's nutritional needs and their capacity?

So [00:26:00] we have that variable to consider. Um, and then when it comes to like with the, the child is eating. It's not just a matter of like, okay, well let's make sure we get these nutrients. Yes. Like we need Omega-3 fatty acids. We need enough fats, we need enough carbs, we need enough proteins, we need enough of these micronutrients.

But, um, what about the quantity of the food? What about the timing of the food? Um, you know, a lot of neurodivergent people, um, and children especially, have a hard time communicating their dietary preferences. They may not even be aware of their hunger signaling or their fullness signaling or how to really navigate that.

And then we're in this household with these stressed out parents who are doing their absolute best to try to take care of us, but they don't understand the nuances of how someone or a neurodivergent child might be experiencing food. So we kind of get conditioned, you know, my experience, um, as a child who, you know, I was diagnosed with autism and A DHD in my late twenties.

I was such a, like textbook picky eater, you know, as a child. Um, and it was very [00:27:00] much due to sensory experiences and aversions. And no one ever really taught me how to navigate that. So I spent a lot of my childhood eating foods that I did not like. Um, I spent a lot of time as a child not eating enough because didn't look like, I thought that some of the food was disgusting, but I had to eat it, you know, because that's what was available to us.

So I think, you know, those types of experiences set us up for ignoring hunger cues and misunderstanding how our body works later in life. And I think that it sets us up for just not understanding the significance of nutrition, because it's always been this thing of, well, I'm hungry, so I need to eat, or it's just been a matter of survival, but there's, there's a lot more going on there.

Dr. Brighten: Mm-hmm. We'll often see, um, a hyperfocus on things like red dye. Like red dye is the problem for A DHD, so just remove that. Or it's gluten. Everybody take out gluten and everybody will be fine. What's problematic in those statements? 

Tim Frie: [00:28:00] Yeah. Well, I mean. I, I, I am very much team of, you know, let's, let's make sure that there are not unnecessary excipients and substances in our food.

Like, some things just don't need to be there, you know, regardless of what the data says, regardless of the climate around the research or whatever. Like, we don't need red dye. We do not need certain things to exist. Um, and I think that brings us back to this issue of nutritional literacy. Like what actually is significant when it comes to our nutritional health right now, you know, the seed oil conversation.

You know, I don't consume a lot of seed oils because that's my preference, and that's based on my personal, uh, you know, assessment of the research and the data that's available. I also know that me avoiding seed oils is not sufficient. That's not the, that that's not enough for me to meet my nutritional needs.

You know, there's a lot of other things that I need to think about. So I think we're just kind of in this, you know, reductionist space where we're getting really hyper-focused on. [00:29:00] You know, one or, or a handful of specific excipients or, you know, dyes or, you know, things that are in food. And then we're attributing all of these different things to, you know, this, whatever it is.

And I kind of see that as like, it's, it's a little bit of a, it's a distraction. You know, the issue is not just the red eye. It's not just the gluten. It's not just artificial sweeteners or whatever it is. It is the food environment. And for us to take care of ourselves and to meet our nutritional needs, we need to understand how our life experiences have shaped our, our relationship with food.

And to navigate our relationship with food. We can't just focus on eliminating certain foods or restricting certain things. We have to really understand these interconnected relationships and learn how to navigate this space, given our means and our capacity and what's going on with our body. 

Dr. Brighten: Your nutritional neuroscience researcher, what is your take?

From the research on [00:30:00] seed oils. 

Tim Frie: Oh boy. Uh, you know, this, you know, I don't know if I'm the best person to answer that despite, you know, my, my background and training because, um, I think that, you know, food is a very individual experience. Like my understanding of the data is going to be different because my perception of how I'm interpreting the significance or the possibility or the risk is shaped by my life experiences, right?

As someone who I. Had experienced childhood trauma and food insecurity and is neurodivergent. Um, and I also have the privilege of being able to afford alternatives and understand the alternatives and how to cook with and prepare foods with alternative seed oils. I'm not convinced that avoiding seed oils really moves the needle on anyone's health in a way that can be assessed through any sort of validated biometric test.

You know, I, I think [00:31:00] this recommendation to avoid seed oils is, is so reductionistic because, you know, I could tell someone who has a, um, you know, let's say a history of cardiovascular disease to avoid seed oils, and my intent would be avoid foods that have seed oils in them, which theoretically would be a lot of ultra processed foods, but, okay, so I cut that out.

I'm avoiding the seed oils, but I'm still in a state of overnutrition. I'm still eating 2000 more calories than I need in a day. I'm still not getting enough micronutrients, I still don't understand, don't have really great and interceptive awareness, but I'm avoiding seed oils. You know, I just, I, I don't think it's a significant enough of a variable in the nutritional landscape to really move the needle for people.

Now, there's no denying the epidemiological data, you know, but I think even a lot of those studies are, you know, they're not perfect. Nutrition, science research is tough. You know, we can't really hold it to the same standard as [00:32:00] pharmaceutical research 'cause it's completely different. You know, that's something else I see online that drives me crazy.

It's like, oh, we need to make sure that, you know, the nutrition research is held to the same standard as pharmaceutical research. That doesn't even make any sense. You know, like, it, it's, 

Dr. Brighten: it's, it's usually people who don't understand nutrition. Yes. And it's, it's 

Tim Frie: such a well intended. Statement. Like, I get where you're going.

Yes, like research should be rigorous and yes, we should have standards, but the food environment and the variable of a specific nutrient or a meal, all of the, there's just so much that's different from a nutritional clinical trial than a pharmaceutical clinical trial. It is so much easier for someone to take a pill and you measure a biomarker before and after, you know, looking at duration and effect size and, you know, all, all of these things when, you know, we're asking someone to change their diet.

Um, there's so many other factors at play just from a, from a, a neurochemistry perspective. So all that to be said, you know, I don't think seed oils, I think [00:33:00] they're, I think they're heavily politicized right now. I think that focusing on avoiding seed oils is, uh, it's been kind of this way to socially engineer more ingroup, outgroup thinking and keep people arguing about, you know, who's right and who's wrong with nutrition.

Um, I just don't think. You know, for my life and my family, you know, I'm gonna avoid seed oils when I can. But if I find a pack of nuts that has a little bit of canola oil in it, I'm probably still going to eat it. If I go out to eat, I'm not gonna be worrying about, is there avocado oil or canola oil? I'm, I'm gonna enjoy the meal that I'm gonna move on with my life.

Dr. Brighten: Mm. I have the same perspective. When you go out to eat, you're not gonna be able to control everything and you should just buckle up because you don't even know if they spit in your food. And I hate to even think that, but like for real, like so much is out of our control in that arena. And I think that we do a service to people in being like, you need to.

Be afraid of all of these things. Therefore, you stop going out and enjoying time and company, you know, with people. You [00:34:00] stop socializing, you will skip meals rather than eat at the airport because you feel paralyzed by making a decision. And I think, you know, we've heard, uh, 80 20 rule talked about a lot and I, I like that framing because it's like you've got a 20% buffer.

That's huge. Actually 20% buffer. But I'm right there with you. I don't have canola oil in my house like we cook with. Um, I love ghee. I'm a big fan of ghee especially. Have you seen the research on butyrate and A DHD? 

Tim Frie: Yes. That's really fascinating. 

Dr. Brighten: Yeah. Okay. We're gonna have to talk about that in a second.

But I just, you know, for people, because I, I know people are always interested, like, what, what are you doing? And I, I am always hesitant 'cause I'm like very much in the way you framed it, I'm different, I'm different than you and I have different needs and my life looks different. Um, and yeah, I think that just saying that like, yes, I don't cook with seed oils in my house.

Of course, like if it's an Asian dish though, and it says sesame oil, like that's how you do it. Like that's how it's done. Um, and [00:35:00] that's the same thing, like, I'm not worrying about that. What I'm more concerned about when it comes to seed oils is ultra processed food, ultra processed food. Doesn't need to exist.

I would argue maybe for the military, what it was developed for, that was the good place to have it. But, but this is not necessary part of the human diet. It is structured, as you said, and by design in our society that it's become a necessary part of some people's diets just to get enough calories.

However, I just want people to understand that if you go out to a restaurant and you have seed oils, like it's not like that. Your body's like you, you curse done deal. Like there's no covering. Like you can have that buffer there. And I think you're absolutely right that it has become politicized. It's very interesting because having studied nutrition in the early two thousands and you know, talking about avoiding canola oil and soybean oil and cotton seeded oil was a very liberal, crunchy take.

Like you were a woo woo over there and now it's spun the [00:36:00] other way. And I'm like, not a lot has changed for all intents and purposes in the nutrition research that has made it where it's like. Yes. Hard fact one way or the other. It's, and that's the problem with nutrition is it's often really gray and it's unsatisfying to people because they're like, I just want you to tell me exactly what to eat, what is right, what is wrong?

And it's always context. It depends where's your health at right now? As you talked about, you know, especially like, you know, with, with children, like who's preparing your meals and how does it, there's so many factors that come into play far beyond food. Um, but what brought up the A DHD butyrate? Do you wanna talk about that a little bit?

Tim Frie: Yeah. You know, well, I'm definitely not, you know, an expert on that topic, but, you know, one thing I'll, I'll share just some, some from some lived experience, getting my A DHD diagnosis in my late twenties was truly lifesaving from a nutritional and health perspective for me. I had, um, several different eating disorders, binge eating disorder, um, orthorexia, [00:37:00] muscle oriented disordered eating for about 10 years before I even realized that I might have an eating disorder.

Like I had to go to graduate school. And, you know, there was maybe like two slides about eating disorders and nothing about A DHD, not to, you know, say that my program was, um, you know, subpar. This is a common experience, you know, among a lot of people who have nutrition training. And, um, I remember the first therapist that I went to where I shared some concern about my eating, she went, oh, you know, you're, you're great.

I really wish all of my patients just ate like you did. And I'm like, okay, great. So thinking about food nonstop, worrying about interleukin six, and, you know, eating broccoli and worrying about, like, I. And RF two pathways, all these things like this is normal. Okay, great. Um, and I think a lot of people I.

Are kind of on this like disordered eating pipeline. Um, and they don't really realize it. And especially people who have a DHD or people who have experienced traumatic stress. Um, you know, a lot of this excitability in the brain and impulsivity that we see with A DHD or emotional dysregulation that's common in A [00:38:00] DHD or, um, you know, some forms of neurodivergence and traumatic stress.

It influences our nutritional behavior. Which is what I would much rather talk about than, uh, butyrate, to be honest. You know, because I think understanding our Fair enough. Yeah. I, I think it's our, well, it's 

Dr. Brighten: just, you know, looking at things that you could eat that support your health. Uh, if people, like, I can do something separate on butyrate, but it's, it supports the notion.

So butyrate is generated, it's a short chain fatty acid generated by the microbiome in your gut. And so it lends to the idea that your gut health does absolutely matter in terms of your neurological health. And, uh, butyrate is actually found in ghee and it can be a great source. And it's been shown just to be beneficial, nourishing for A DHD.

It's not necessarily like. You're gonna eat butyrate and that's gonna totally cure your A DHD. Um, it's more like this is a helpful nutrient that can lend itself to you having better executive function. So that's my spiel on it. I can do another episode where I talk more about it and you can talk about the stuff you're passionate [00:39:00] about.

Tim Frie: Yeah. No, and I think, you know, that's important too. You know, you mentioned, you know, what this does in the gut with short chain fatty acids and such. You know, there's a lot of conversation right now about gut brain, gut brain axis, and, you know, gut immune, gut endocrine axis and things like that. I think, um, you know, the enteric nervous system is something that we really don't understand a whole lot about yet, but, um, we also kind of think that we do understand a lot.

But, um, you know, one, one thing that comes to mind, um, about what you just said is, you know, you, you said it's one of these things that you can do. Like this is one thing to think about if you have a DHD, and that is, I think that is just this mindset of like, what can I do to support myself? Like that perspective of what can I do to support myself and meet my nutritional needs in ways that are within my means versus.

How do I fix this thing with food? Or how do I fix this thing with a supplement shifting from like this Salutogenic health promoting perspective away from this pathogenic disease treating perspective, I think is what's gonna allow us to have a more constructive relationship with food. [00:40:00] And people who have a DHD or a neurodivergent or who have experienced trauma, know that food is pretty difficult to navigate.

Like sometimes we don't really know, is this a craving? Am I hungry? Am I full? Do I need to eat? Do I need to drink? Like, what is do I just need to do? And then we end up doing nothing for four hours and then, uh, you know, just like, oh, okay, now I'm hungry. I have to eat. Um, and it's, it's, I think understanding how these external variables or things that are outside of our body shape, the way that we, I.

Interpret our internal signals is, is the key. And that's a requisite I think, to even before we even get into, into, you know, different supplements and things to think about. I think that's part of this puzzle that we're missing here because there's not a lot of money to be made or a lot of control to be had if people actually understand how to navigate their body.

You know, if people actually knew how to determine what do I need, when do I need it, how much do I need it, we would not have, you know, and I [00:41:00] understand you're a supplement company, so respect to that, you're one of the few people that are, you know, doing it right. One of the few companies. But we wouldn't have this trillion dollar, you know, multi-trillion dollar supplement industry if people knew how to meet their nutritional needs and, um, we wouldn't need them if we didn't have all these systemic barriers where people can benefit from supplements because it helps them meet their nutritional needs.

'cause it is so much easier sometimes to take a powder, to take a capsule. And, you know, this is kind of bringing us back to what we were just talking about. With extremism, with with nutritional perspectives. I think there's also this perspective where like if you're taking nutritional supplements and you're lazy or you're bad or you don't really need them.

And then the other perspective is Whole foods always meet your needs through Whole Foods. Well, there are people and populations and, and diseases where people do need and benefit greatly from nutritional supplementation. And when I think about people who experience executive function, like people who have a DHD, people who are [00:42:00] experiencing like any degree of cognitive overload or they've experienced trauma, supplementation is really important for those people and it can help them bridge the gaps when they don't have capacity for, for cooking.

And I'm one of those people, like I start my day with a shake or a smoothie that has two scoops away protein. I've been doing that since I was 15 years old. Um, that's important for me. If I don't have a. Some sort of protein supplement during the day, after just a few days, it's tough for me to eat enough protein.

Um, so all of that being said, kind of all went on a, a tangent there, but, uh, I just can't emphasize enough just how important it is for us to take the time to really understand how to meet our nutritional needs in ways that are within our means. 

Dr. Brighten: Mm-hmm. Well, I appreciate your kind words about my supplement company.

People are always taken back when I say that I own a supplement company, and I will still tell you it is food first. It is lifestyle first, and if you're not doing those things, [00:43:00] you can't just pop a supplement and think that it's going to change your life. Like you have to have that foundation. But as you said, sometimes we have to use supplementation because it's hard to get that foundation, right?

So if you are. Emotionally, and, and if your, your nervous system is dysregulated. So we talked about executive functions. I wanna get further into that. I think a lot of people don't realize that emotional regulation is an executive function. And if you are a neurodivergent woman and then you go into perimenopause, that gets really hard.

Or if you just go into perimenopause, this, uh, executive function gets really hard because of estrogen dropping, because of progesterone not interacting with gaba. And we can see by way of the stress response that something like magnesium becomes something we need much more of. Now you've got an emotionally dysregulated person.

Who is suffering with executive functions and you're like, here's all these whole foods with magnesium. Can you eat enough to get 300 to 500, you know, milligrams a day. And that [00:44:00] becomes overwhelming to the system. And sometimes you bring in something like magnesium glycinate, it helps them start sleeping.

They're, they're getting ahead of, you know, basically the, the nervous system issues by way of just using a little bit of the supplement. Now they're able to achieve what they need to with their nutrition. So going back though to the executive function piece, can you explain to people what executive function is?

Because I feel like it gets thrown around a lot, especially in the A DHD conversation, but we don't talk about the specifics of what it actually means and looks like. 

Tim Frie: Yeah. Executive function is so important, I think, for everyone to understand, but if you have any sort of neurological. Disease, an autoimmune disease, any chronic disease, any of them, all of them.

You're a neurodivergent, you have any sort of mental health diagnosis, you have PTSD executive function is really important for you to understand. And I think understanding what executive function is can also help us stop blaming [00:45:00] ourselves or like our, you know, seeing our inability or challenges with meeting our needs and navigating the day as something that's not just like this inherent weakness, you know, or failure.

So executive function is, I think there's 10 or eight to 10 different, um, executive functions, but you can look at it as all of the different processes that your brain engages in for you to engage in a task or organize something. So thinking about things like. Planning, um, ranking things, ordering things, um, making decisions about timing, um, organization and planning or, and decision making.

Kind of those three buckets there. Um, when we talk about executive functioning, and there's a lot of, uh, conversation about, um, you know, Alzheimer's disease, neurodegeneration, neuroinflammation, and that's typically how it presents is some sort of impairment with executive dysfunction. Um, A DHD is an impairment in executive dysfunction.

PTSD can also [00:46:00] impair executive dysfunction, um, most chronic diseases or autoimmune diseases because the, the neuroinflammation that can result, they also impair executive function. Now, I think most people, it's like, okay, so executive functioning is like when I'm working or when I'm driving or when I'm cleaning my house.

Yep. Those are all executive functions and so is cooking and so is preparing a meal and making a grocery list and following a recipe. And looking, you know, here's what I want to eat this week. Matching that up with different ingredients, ordering how to clean up from dinner. Like, okay, I'm gonna clean off the table, then I'm going to wash these dishes and I'm gonna put these in the dishwasher.

Those are executive functions too. And life with executive dysfunction is pretty tough. Um, it's pretty tough. And um, you know, you mentioned earlier like the impact of some of these different hormones, um, and neural hormones on, um, executive function. We see changes throughout the menstrual cycle, which, you know, you would be, you know, more, um, equipped to speak on.[00:47:00] 

Um, but this is something that I always mentioned to my clients who are menstruating and they have a DHD or they've experienced trauma. 'cause I'll notice these cycles where it's like, okay, we're, we're in, you know, we're in day day 14 and you know, their estrogen is really high and they're telling me that they're, you know, craving something or their mood is changed or they don't really feel like cooking.

Then they're also blaming themselves for that. They're like, how do I just get it together? Like, you gotta figure this out. And it's like, yeah, there is something happening in your body that is causing you, there's neurobiological underpinnings to all of our behaviors, and if we don't understand what's happening in our bodies, we can't take care of ourselves.

And understanding how, you know, our stress levels and our sleep and interactions that we have with people influence our executive DIS or executive functioning can be really pivotal and helpful for people to navigate the day and navigate their body. 

Dr. Brighten: What do you think people are missing when it comes to you leveraging nutrition to support their executive [00:48:00] function?

Tim Frie: I think the biggest variables that people need to consider to support their executive dysfunction isn't necessarily about the micronutrient or the macronutrient, and, and that's important. You know, I don't want to, you know, uh. You know, insinuate that those are not important variables, but for most people, I think it's more accessible to start with, um, meal timing, um, meal size, um, and also just an intentional and conscious practice of building their interceptive awareness of, okay, here's what I'm noticing in my body.

Here's, um, my energy level on a scale from one to 10 or whatever. Here's my cognitive capacity. Do I have it in me to cook a meal today? And if you know that there are certain things or certain patterns or cycles in your life where certain events lead to you being exhausted and blown out, like after this podcast interview, I'm probably gonna be socially done for the rest of the day.

You know, so I, I, same. I go take 

Dr. Brighten: a nap. Yes. 

Tim Frie: [00:49:00] So like, I'm, I'm preparing, like my dinner tonight is gonna take me 15 minutes. I'm making salmon, I'm gonna use a. A, a rice and vegetable blend. I'm gonna cook a little bit more vegetables. I'm gonna throw that in the oven and I'm gonna eat it. So it's gonna take me five minutes or 15 minutes to, to figure out, and I'm, I'm gonna lay on the floor, you know, while I'm waiting for that to, to finish.

And I think it's like, 

Dr. Brighten: yes, we would totally get along and I would be there with you and we would not talk or even look at each other. Yeah, 

Tim Frie: exactly. Exactly. And, and my partner knows that, you know, my partner knows. And I think it's those types of things like the, the, the awareness and translating that awareness into practice is how, what can really help us with our executive function.

And, and, and just by acknowledging like, okay, I go through this cycle in my life or this, this type of experience impacts me in this way. So here's a way I can take care of myself. Here's a way I can meet my nutritional needs. Here's a way to make sure that I'm not like ordering DoorDash or something later and eating something I don't really want to eat.

I did a little bit of prep. [00:50:00] I spent 30 seconds thinking about what I could make tonight. Which, you know, I planned a few days ago. And, um, that's what we're gonna do. And I'm gonna feel a lot better with this planning and the structure in my life than just kind of relying on my emotions and the, you know, where my blood sugar would be if I don't eat dinner.

And you know, how that's gonna impact my brain and decision making and impulsivity. Um, I find a lot of people, especially, you know, women who applies to everybody, but women especially, who are raising kids, they're working full time, maybe they're going to school, they're spending time on social media, they're talking to their friends, exerting a lot of cognitive effort during the day.

There's just sometimes truly nothing left when it comes time to cook dinner. Um, and for some people, you know, when we talk about these things, I'll introduce the idea of planning or just being proactive. And for some people that even sounds or feels like a burden because it's like, well, you know, I. God, that's one more thing I have to do.

That's one more thing to think about, but [00:51:00] sometimes we can think about these things in more simplistic ways that, um, are more supportive than burdensome. 

Dr. Brighten: Mm-hmm. Yeah. And, you know, for women who are relating to this conversation, um, and I think this is a, I'm going to share something because I think that the hypervigilant, the foodies, wellness people will drop their jaw.

But I am, as we're talking right now, I'm seven weeks pregnant last week. Okay. So I had been like manic in a way of like, um, and I don't use that word lightly. I want people to understand I'm not being like, oh, I was like, no, I was hyped up on a lot of estrogen early in pregnancy. I was in that like a DHD honeymoon of all the projects, but also this voice was whispering, like it is coming for you.

Your executive dysfunction will be through the roof as soon as progesterone really starts to hit in this pregnancy. And you're gonna have to white knuckle it some [00:52:00] days for the, like next six to 10 weeks, some. Knowing this is coming. I was in Costco last week and I saw they had a giant thing of hard boiled eggs.

Not cage free, not, you know, free range, not organic or anything. And I had a moment for sure where I was like, oh, you certainly, you can hard boil some eggs. And I'm like, well, no, nausea's gonna come. It's gonna come for you. And I looked at this package and I'm like, listen, come next week. I'm probably not going to have the ability to think through protein, to think through how I'm going to get that.

I need to start stalking my kitchen now with what I'm going to need. So for women who are like, what does this have to do with pregnancy, if you are neuro already urgent, I'm a DHD, so I have autism and a DHD because my brain likes to just, uh, mix it up. So with that, um, you have either one of those and you are hormonally sensitive, so you are gonna be more sensitive, your brain to the [00:53:00] changes that happen with pregnancy.

The changes of perimenopause changes, postpartum changes with the birth control, changes with coming off of birth control, changes with your cycle. Like all of that is going to, you're gonna be more sensitive. You are more attuned to all of those changes because you, you've already have. Different operating neurological system and neurotransmitters.

And I wish I had like tons of data on women to be like, and this is exactly what is going on. We have more of like broad theories of what's going on. But what you just talked about I think is so important and something that so many women face, especially in perimenopause transition, because now they have to get more protein because sarcopenic obesity is staring them down.

They wanna dodge that they're struggling with, uh, weight gain as well. But we're starting to see these hormonal shifts where it's hard to actually plan. Now you are somebody who is also neurodivergent, so what ways are you successful in making [00:54:00] sure you nourish your body? 

Tim Frie: Yeah. Well, I, I just wanna go back to the egg thing.

The, the hard boiled eggs have been a topic in my family with me because my parents hate that I cannot hard boil eggs. I have an egg maker and I still buy the, like from Costco, the pre-packaged or organic eggs, and they're so easy. I open 'em up, there's two eggs there, and that takes me 30 seconds. The, the sensory experience of cracking the eggs and peeling them, it takes me 10 or 15 minutes.

Ugh. So, um, so, so buying some things that are packaged for cognitive convenience, I. I dunno if that's a real term, but maybe just coin that cognitive convenience. You know, it's, I 

Dr. Brighten: think it's a great term because cognitive convenience means freeing up energy for the things that matter in your life. And I'm, I'm here for that.

Tim Frie: Yeah. Like peeling eggs not really important to me. But, you know, I can also see before I answer your question, you know, I think some people might be listening to this and going, oh my goodness, like you don't even have capacity to like hard boil an egg or peel an egg. Like how do you get through your [00:55:00] day?

And you know, my question would be, you know, what supports and life experiences or what supports exist in your life, what life experiences have you had, what infrastructure do you have in your food environment that makes it conducive for you to spend a lot of time on food preparation and on organizing and, and planning for your meals?

We all do not have the same food environment. So, you know, in terms of things that have worked for me to kind of ease the cognitive burden of food prep, gentle planning has been huge for me. Not. Not allowing myself to get to like this hanger state where my blood sugar's really low, my medication's wearing off.

I'm feeling just like really frustrated and irritated. Um, and for me that looks like spending about three minutes with my partner. Every Sunday I have a whiteboard on my fridge and I'll just like, what do you want to eat this week? And then we just go down the list. Most people I found eat between like 15 to 25 of the same foods and meals over and over again.

And that's certainly true for us. [00:56:00] I am not someone despite really liking the science of nutrition, I actually do not like cooking. I think it's exhausting. Um, but I cook because it's important to me and I know that I have to cook to survive. So I use a lot of, or plan a lot of meals that I can use. The oven I use, make a lot of sheet pan meals, bake a lot of things 'cause I can season something, marinate it.

You know, spend five to 10 minutes prepping it, put it in the oven. Okay. There's 30 minutes to an hour depending on what I'm cooking, and I can just do whatever I need to do. Um, I also blend a lot of things together. So when I make like rice or quinoa or some sort of grain with a vegetable, I just combine them together.

Um, once they're done cooking and then I can store that easily. I can use that as a side dish for any other meal that comes in the week. Um, and then, you know, something else that is really important to me that I've noticed ever since I was a teenager, I just feel better cognitively, physically with a high protein diet.

So I eat about one gram per pound of body weight, a protein a day. For me that's like two hundred and five, [00:57:00] two hundred eight grams protein, which for a lot of people is a lot. And it is tough for me to get. All of that through Whole Foods. So I use a little bit of supplementation. So I've used all kinds of different proteins throughout the years.

I don't have any issues with dairy. I use a whey protein. I take some after my workout, like within an hour or two of my workout if I, depending on the timing. And then I have a, a smoothie every morning with two scoops of whey protein. So I get about 50 grams of protein in the beginning of my day. Um, I, I, uh, have that smoothie before I take, um, my medication, which I've noticed having that meal prior makes a big difference.

Um, and the other thing that I've done, which has been it, it has taken me years to do this. I might've just lost some people there, but I, I think one of the most important and significant things you can do to reduce the, the cognitive burden of, of food and the food noise and just the, the weight of food in your life is to, I.

Commit to noticing how your [00:58:00] body interacts with food and the food environment. So can you spend two weeks just being very intentional about, I've noticed when I eat meals that are really carbohydrate heavy, that I feel this way after I eat them. Or, okay, if I eat a really carbohydrate dense lunch between 12 and one and I had a really stressful day, I don't feel great.

If you can notice enough of those things and you run these little micro experience experiments where you're the sole participant, you're gonna gather so much information and data about yourself that you're gonna be able to write the owner's manual for your body and you're gonna know how to speed up and slow down and what you need and what you don't need, depending on what's going on in your life.

So, um, I, I think that's kind of the core theme of everything that I do to, um, make nutrition easy, is I have spent years. Being intentional and conscious about how my body and diet interacts with my environment. [00:59:00] 

Dr. Brighten: I think this has been really helpful for people to hear about the, on Sunday, just kind of structuring where things are, giving permission to combine things like you see a lot happening on social media.

And I will say, so I used to be like, when Paleo was big, I was friends with all of the, like the paleo foodie people. I'm a foodie if you like to make food and you want Taco Bell food, I just wanna hang out with you and eat food. So what I found out though is that a lot of them weren't even eating the meals they were making.

So you were seeing these beautiful videos, photos, everything going on, and they weren't even eating them. And they're like, my family didn't even like it. Um. And Yeah. And it's, and I will say if people are like, oh, they're fraught. No. 'cause I would eat their stuff and I'm like, no, this is amazing. What are you talking about?

But, um, and I think it's just really important to understand that like, it can be that simple. It does not have to be a production. I like to use, um, with patients. And within my family, myself is like just the, like buildable. Build a bowl, like you gotta have a protein in there. So you're gonna [01:00:00] take this bowl and half of it's gonna be vegetables.

Just pick a vegetable. If it's just romaine lettuce is not like the most nutrient dense, no. But you check the box and like that really does wonder for your dopamine, and it will help reinforce that habit. Next time going around. We don't have to be perfect every time. Then you split that other side. I need a quarter of it to be protein and a quarter of it to be some kind of carbs.

And so maybe it's the rice, it's the quinoa, it's sweet potatoes, it's squash. And what I, why I like to teach that structure is because you can just create a checklist on your fridge that's like, here's proteins, here's vegetables, here's, you know, the carbs, and here's like a fat, maybe it's olive oil I put on top.

Maybe it's some avocado, maybe it's some pine nuts like, and you just have these lists. And so when you've had cognitive overload in the day, you just look at this laminated little list that you may and you go to Home Depot or so, or not Home Depot. Office Depot, that's the one. And get it laminated. And have it on there and just see like, okay, I don't have to think this through [01:01:00] what's in the fridge?

You could pull it off and look what's in the fridge. Just build the bowl and you're, you're done. And I think it's things that are really simple and accessible that people will follow through on. And when we set up how many health nutrition cookbooks out there exist and you get in and it's like, this is 5,000 recipes and food that I have to procure from like, I don't know where you get this, this is special order.

And they becomes super overwhelming. And while I'm a big fan of like, if it looks weird to you, 'cause you're like, I've never seen it before in the market, Ooh, you should probably find a way to eat that. Your microbiome will like it. But if you are struggling with just feeding yourself every day, we're not ready for that.

We're not ready for that. Just keep it super simple. 

Tim Frie: Yeah, and I, I think, you know, kind of bringing this conversation full circle, this is how the food industry exploits people because they know that so many people are experiencing cognitive overload. They know that so many Americans experience executive dysfunction and that they have some degree of [01:02:00] neuroinflammation, and that they have thousand different things going on in their life.

It is so much easier to go into the freezer, rip something open, pop it in the oven, and forget about it. And, and you know, we still have nutritional needs. Our brains and our bodies still need things that we do not get from these foods. Um, but these food companies don't, don't really care about that because they make money regardless of whether we're nourished or not.

Um, so I think one of the most liberating things that we can do as individuals is. Like I've been saying, learn how to take care of yourself with food, but also learn how your food environment and your life experiences influence what I call your food related capacity. Like your, your ability to think about food, plan food and, and just navigate your relationship with food.

Um, and one other thing that I was thinking about as I was listening to you talk was really getting clear on what a meal actually is. You know, I think a lot of people are still attached to this idea where it's like breakfast, lunch, dinner, or whatever the diet is saying, you have to eat four times or six times or whatever.[01:03:00] 

Um, you, you get to define meal. Ideally, meals contain nutrients that you need at that time for that purpose on that day or in that day, right? Um, a, a snack plate that does not have, you know, isn't, you know, some things are cold, some things are hot like that. That's a meal. Um, one thing you know, that I sometimes will ask people is like, what, what is a snack to you?

Um, and sometimes they'll describe a meal and I'm like, okay, well that's a meal. Um, because you know, it has, you know, all these different components and nutrients. Um, and sometimes, uh, a snack is not very nutrient dense. Sometimes it is. And I think just us taking back and regaining and building that awareness about how we interact within our food environment is, is really key to taking care of ourselves regardless of who you are and you know, your neuro type and, you know, whatever your diagnoses may be, you have to learn how to navigate your body and your relationship with food.

Otherwise you're just out here like looking for rules and looking for more [01:04:00] instructions to follow and you don't ever really develop an understanding of. How to take care of yourself and that sucks. 

Dr. Brighten: Yeah, I, as you were saying, the snack plates, I'm like, charcuterie is like the savior of the neuro emergent brain.

Yes. 'cause you can literally just be like, I'm throwing, I'm, I'm gonna make wash the carrot in the cucumber. I'm throwing it on a tray. I'm like throwing some proteins on there. I get some cheese going, like there's some grapes. Like, um, and it's interesting, right, because that's the other part that I think doesn't get talked about enough, is that eating is boring.

Cooking food can be boring. Like it can be a really boring experience and to make it enjoyable. You, that's effort that maybe you don't have. And I think, um, you know, this is something that like we're not allowed to talk about. Like, oh yeah, like I'm, I'm finding this thing being boring. 'cause people are like, suck it up.

It's necessary for life. And yet some people with A DHD will have struggles with getting enough nutrients in with [01:05:00] eating because the, the task is not just overwhelming, it's not just daunting, but it's like, how can I motivate to do the thing I find the most boring thing in the world? In, and I will say.

This is something that I've had to learn from people, from listening to them because I feel like the only place where my A DHD and autism play really well together, and this is in the kitchen because the autism's, like we have structure. There is a way that you do things and we only do things in this way.

And the a d ADHD is like, but what if we like throw marshmallows in there? Or what if we like, you know, try this and, and, and then the autism's like, yeah, you can do that as long as you do it in the right order, and they'll play nice together. And I'm like, okay. So for me it's really enjoyable, but in listening to patients and even women online, they're like, it is so boring.

I feel like I'm in pain to have to think about food, to have to go to the kitchen to do any of that. Um. So I think we just have to, you know, acknowledge that aspect. And I wanna, we talked about the macros, we talked about [01:06:00] timing of eating, but when it comes to nutrients, you know, something interesting is that when it comes to a DHD, when it comes to PTSD, when it comes to autism, when it comes to, uh, autoimmune disease, you're talking about neuroinflammation.

But also just for everybody listening, neuroplasticity, there are certain nutrients that we need to be taking in to support the brain in doing that. So can you talk to us a bit about that? 

Tim Frie: Yeah, absolutely. So, you know, I. The, for those of you who are listening, you're, you're learning new information, hopefully, or you're making a connection with something.

This is neuroplasticity live. It's happening now. Um, whenever we learn, whenever we learn something, we heal from something. We grow from something that's ultimately neuroplasticity. It's our brain strengthening, strengthening a connection, weakening a connection, maybe forming a new connection or reorganizing some things.

Like I said earlier, the material basis of our existence of your brain is nutrition. The [01:07:00] brain uses between 20 and 25% of your total daily energy intake, which is pretty significant. Um, and it needs a number of different micronutrients and macronutrients to do what it needs to do. So, you know, one of the, the most fundamental things is glucose, which is your brain's preferred source of energy.

I see a lot of women who are, um, you know, they've, they're following like a low carb diet or ketogenic diet, and they're feeling I. Like crap, you know, during certain parts of their menstrual cycle. And it's like, okay, maybe the low carb thing isn't really gonna work for you despite, you know, what you've been told.

Um, so we need to make sure that we have enough carbohydrate for our brain to do what it needs to do. Now, the, the, you know, ketones, ketone bodies that, um, you know, are, are generated in the body to provide a source of fuel for the brain when we're following a ketogenic diet or we don't have a sufficient amount of carbohydrate available, available, they are sufficient energy sources for the brain.

But some people just don't feel great at eating a [01:08:00] low carb diet. And for those people, I say, you don't have to, you do not need to follow a ketogenic diet to take care of your brain. So making sure that you have enough energy available, making sure you have enough glucose and carbohydrate available. Also thinking about things that, um, create the structural components of different neural cells.

So Omega-3 fatty acids and DHA and EPA, they play a role in forming the, uh, myelin sheath and a lot of the, um, structure, um, that is necessary for synaptic function and, and neuro communication and for our neurochemistry to do what it needs to do to generate thoughts and generate emotions. Um, there was a, a paper published by a researcher from American University where she looked at, um, nutrient profiles of people who had experienced post-traumatic stress.

And, um, people who hadn't. And she found that Omega-3 fatty acid deficiency was really common among people who have PTSD. I've seen some research suggesting that, um, people with A DHD don't consume enough omega threes either. Anecdotally, in my practice, like I [01:09:00] take two grams of DHA every single day, I notice a profound difference.

Um, I eat salmon like once or twice at most a week. Um, you know, I eat a lot of walnuts and almonds and cashews and things, but, um, I feel better when I have a really high, um, intake of, of DHA and I get that from a supplement. So, um, EPA and DHA are really important for just maintaining structural components of different neural cells.

Um, also thinking about, 

Dr. Brighten: can you explain what. The difference between EPA and DHA for people who might not know? 

Tim Frie: Yeah, so there's actually wrote my, um, this is how I came into, to neuronutrition. I was researching the impact of DHA on, um, concussive injury, uh, recovery in school age athletes. And, um, we have different types of, of fats.

Some of them we, uh, you know, we get different fats and different sources and, um, these Omega-3 fatty acids are just really important for, um, like membrane fluidity. So making sure that the cell membrane can, can, can do what it needs to [01:10:00] do to let things kind of go in and out. Um, we get Omega-3 fatty acids from different nuts.

Um, you know, salmon, mackerel, um, you know, anchovies, um, where I said nuts and started to list fish. Oh my goodness. Um. 

Dr. Brighten: But fish are the best source though. I know. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, because the, the reality is, I, you know, there's a lot of times that I speak with vegans and they're like, well just get all my omega threes from nuts and seeds and plants.

And I'm like, you need, you're gonna have to do algae supplement. There's no way to actually achieve the levels that we know have therapeutic benefits when you're eating only plants, um, unless you eat fish. And, uh, but then it also takes a copious amount of fish and anytime. I share, like I do fish oil in my smoothies and I do, uh, salmon and my kids love sardines and anchovies.

I do not, but I eat them in front of them. But pe I always get people online who are like, yuck. Absolutely not. And I'm like, [01:11:00] you may do better with a supplement. And if you already are like, yuck, then I recommend sticking that supplement in the fridge so that you never smell it. Never taste it, never have a problem with it.

Tim Frie: Yeah. I, I find myself, most people that eat a diet that is, you know, the majority of their diet is. Ultra processed foods or it's not nutrient dense. Um, you know, we, sometimes I'll request blood testing and a lot of them have, uh, objective DHA and EPA deficiencies. Um, and to your point about the therapeutic dose, that's, that's really important for supplementation.

I see a lot of people who are recommended by their primary care doctor or their cardiologist for preventive measures of, you know, atherosclerosis and vascular inflammation. Okay, we'll take an Omega-3 supplement, but then they go out and they see 1000 milligrams fish oil, but there's only like 200 milligrams of EPA and 300.

Milligrams of DHA and we know that the therapeutic dose is actually into the thousands. Um, especially for n neurodegeneration, you know, some of these studies are showing an upwards of like one to four, maybe six [01:12:00] grams of, of DHA and EPAA day, and you'd have to eat, I mean, you need to eat salmon every day, you know, and nuts to do that.

And I don't think most, most people are doing that. So, um, you know, omega threes are really important. And I, I also think something that everybody knows, it's like, I need color diversity in my diet. I need polyphenols. But, um, polyphenols, like in curcumin and, um, you know, a compound that's found in green tea and matcha and um, you know, resveratrol and just all kinds of things that give fruit and produce their color.

They are so good for our brain. They make sure that, um, you know. The, the environment in terms of its toxicity and reactive oxygen species, what's going on in there is manageable for our cells to do what they need to do. And, um, you know, a lot of people who don't consume nutrient dense diet have diets, have a pretty low antioxidant, um, profile or capacity.

So whatever you can do to eat more color in your diet. [01:13:00] Um, and again, I know that's so boring, we've all heard that, but when it comes to brain health, your brain loves color and it loves those polyphenols, and that's really important. Um, you mentioned, um, you know, magnesium earlier and, um, sort of thinking about, you know, proteins and amino acids and, uh, something that I think a lot of people would really benefit from understanding is when it comes to protein, those amino acids like tryptophan and um.

Like glutamine and tyrosine, those are all really important precursors that are necessary for your body to produce neurotransmitters like, uh, dopamine and serotonin and GABA and some of these other things. If you are not eating a sufficient amount of protein, you might be experiencing like a mild protein deficiency and you're experiencing like the neuropsychological consequences of that and you may not even be aware of it.

So protein is not just about skeletal muscle preservation, but it is necessary for your brain to, to do what it needs to do. Um, and I think, you know, right [01:14:00] now there's also a lot of talk about get enough protein, focus on protein, and then we're not thinking about fiber. And then it turns into like, well what about this and what about this nutrient, you know, how do we sort through all of this?

And, and this brings me back to like, for those of you who might even be feeling a little like, okay, so is it magnesium? Is it this, what do I focus on? Start, you know, ask yourself like, what feels most accessible to me right now? Like, can I think about protein for a few weeks? Can I think about. Polyphenols in color can I think about fatty acids for a few weeks.

Like just pick one thing and notice how that shows up or doesn't show up in your diet. How eating certain quantities of these thing, these things in your diet makes you feel on a regular basis. And I think that is, just building that awareness and coming back to your body is, is is really important.

Dr. Brighten: Mm-hmm. I love that you're like, just take a moment to observe. You've said this several times in this conversation of like just taking the moment to observe where you're at because what this is [01:15:00] doing is it's reinforcing that nutrition is bio individual and that you have to assess and ask what's true for you.

And I think that, you know, this is the thing that's super frustrating is that to some degree, most of the time there's some truth in what people are saying. Even the outrageous things, as is outrageous as it sounds. There's some grain of truth in that, but we always have to come back to. Is this true for me?

So you were saying a assessing protein. I think that's definitely important. You were talking about fiber polyphenols, Omega-3 fatty acids. I think people are, you know, that people would wonder like, what about B12? What about zinc? You hear a lot about these for A DH, D, but also for neuroplasticity. 

Tim Frie: Yeah. I mean there, there is a whole list of nutrients, um, that I could go down.

Vitamin A, vitamin E, vitamin D, choline, zinc, copper, selenium, iron. Like, there's so many things that are important for neuroplasticity and uh, you know, I think what's what's important for people to understand is the brain. Nothing in the body, [01:16:00] especially the brain is really working in isolation. So it's not like, okay, I have iron and then it does this one thing and then a cell is made.

Like, it's, it's not that, that simple. And I think that we've kind of presented it to people that way though. It's like we see these ads and it's like, okay, magnesium can help you sleep better because it does this thing. It's not that taking that supplement does this well, maybe at that dose sure. But in context or a broader view, it's that these different nutrients are responsible for the magnesium hundreds, you know, of different things in the body that I cannot even begin to, to know where to start to list off, and I don't even know all of them.

Um, and same with iron. So I think what we need to strive for is understanding, like all nutrients are equally important because they all work in synergy. The body is always communicating with other systems. Um, you know, one thing that, like I teach in my course for practitioners is what I call like this neurobiological nexus.

We have the neuro immune [01:17:00] system, the neurovascular system, the neuroendocrine system, the neuro metabolism system. All of these things are happening all at the same time, and they all kind of need the same things. And the only way you're gonna figure out what it is that you actually need is through.

Experimentation and, and manipulating different variables in your diet. And checking in with, with how you feel. Some people might feel better eating a diet that has more sources of B12 on a daily basis. They might feel really good with supplemental B12 and still being mindful of B12. Um, you know, like I have, um, like I have IBDI have had, uh, experienced iron deficiency without anemia several times in my life now.

So one thing that I am very conscious of on a daily basis is my iron intake and making sure that I have enough, um, iron because I know that I'm likely to develop a deficiency whether I'm in exacerbation or not. Um, and that's one little thing that I can do to take care of myself. So I think [01:18:00] instead of.

You know, having these conversations like these are the nutrients because there's dozens and several different amino acids that our brain needs to, to form neurotransmitters and, um, make sure that our neural cells can communicate. Um, we need to really check in with how we feel and get a measure for how, how we're thinking.

And we've kind of lost sight of that, I think. 

Dr. Brighten: Mm-hmm. I wanna ask you, what do you think is the problem with presenting nutrition and lifestyle as either a cure or a prevention to neurological conditions like a DHD or autism? 

Tim Frie: Wow, that's, that's a really good question. I think the problem with presenting nutrition and lifestyle interventions as the cure for neurodivergence is, it, it, it, it's just coming from this place of having, I.

Here's this question again of like how we see neurodivergent people. You know, I think the [01:19:00] harms of presenting nutrition and lifestyle interventions is curative, is that we are pathologizing what I know to be and see as part of just a human experience. Um, you know, there's a lot of things in our life that, um, have been what's called medicalized, and that essentially means there's been some part of the human experience that has been viewed socially and culturally by a certain group of people as being an inconvenience essentially, or that it's pathological.

So we see people, uh, you know, demonstrating certain characteristics and qualities and then we put a label to that and then we try to, is this a disease? Is this pathology or is this just normal variation in human development? Um, and. Humans just kind of come up with these definitions and we make this stuff up.

Um, now granted that's a pretty ambi generalized statement that I just made there. But nonetheless, um, you know, I think we can become so fixated [01:20:00] on changing who a person is and changing who they are because we've been conditioned to believe that certain traits are pathological and bad when in reality, what if we were to just accept and support these people and just allow them to assimilate into society and build a society and a culture where they have a space and they can actually fit in.

And instead of spending all of this time and energy to, to fix a pathology or something wrong with them, that may or may not actually be there, depending on, you know, your perspective. What if we just lived with these people and loved them and took care of them? And I think if we start, you know, trying to use nutrition and lifestyle to treat something that may just be inevitable that we can't actually change, we.

Set that person up for an eating disorder or you know. Obsessive compulsive disorder body OCD and just, you know, they, they feel like they're a pathology and they feel wrong. And, um, I just, I don't [01:21:00] think that's it. Just that's, that's just not it. 

Dr. Brighten: Yeah. Well, to stay in the vein of being neuro affirming that neurodivergence, this is a neurotype, it's not a disease and it's not something that needs to be cured.

However, we do see in the case of autism, that there are is a wide variation in terms of how people can present with in the spectrum itself. Do you believe there is a place for nutrition, especially when you see children who are nonverbal, who are violent, who are in that level three support category?

Tim Frie: Yeah. Well, I mean, I think it kind of comes back to my core message here of figuring out how food. Impacts that person's body and impacts their mind and their brain and how, how they function regardless of, of someone's neurotype. I would give the same recommendation, like, let's try it, let's see, you know, let's, let's try to do this thing.

Let's see what we notice. I think that there's a line though between, you know, a kid who's neurodivergent, who thinks differently and [01:22:00] processes things differently. Are we trying to mask and, and hide their them? Are we trying to mask them with some sort of intervention and get them to act like someone they're not?

And then we see that as like, oh, this is an intervention, this has been effective here. Or are we just trying to, like, are we trying to actually help them live a better life? And from what I see in this space of nutritional medicine as it relates to, you know, autism and, and A-D-H-D-I. We're, we're not really doing that.

We're not really coming at this from a place of like, how can this person eat in a way that supports their mind, brain, and body's needs? It's like, you need to eat these foods because you need to stop acting that way, or you need to stop responding this way. And I just, I just don't think that's it. 

Dr. Brighten: I wanna echo what you said because so many times when I look at research studies that have positive outcomes, like we see, um, a, b, a therapy, when you look at these things that say, we were able to reverse [01:23:00] autism.

We improved their autism. I'm like, you taught them how to mask. And for people who don't know what masking is, masking is literal survival. Um, it's why you and I right now, we're masking, we're, we're, we're masking. We're like, how do I articulate it in the way that people understand and the best, and, and that's why we'll be exhausted afterwards.

Masking is incredibly. Draining to the nervous system, and it does have chronic disease implications as we know. And so we do have to be very careful about that. What do you think medicine and healthcare providers, including functional and naturopathic medicine are getting wrong about neurodivergent people?

Tim Frie: Hmm. I, I think what most healthcare professionals and, and functional medicine and naturopathic providers get wrong about working with neurodivergent people is approaching them as if they are the pathology or it's like you, you have through the biomedical lens, yes, you have a neurodevelopmental disorder, but you're not, A lot of practitioners are not [01:24:00] trained to understand how this person's lived experience or maybe not lived experience.

How they're being as a person has been influenced by how their brain works. So, you know, for example, I see on a lot of functional medicine practitioners websites or it's like conditions treated. Autism. And then you go to that page and say, well, here's how we treat all of these different symptoms of autism.

I'm like, great. So I just envision, you know, a well-meaning loving, caring parent who is probably so overwhelmed by their child going to one of these practitioners and just being like, can you please help me with this? Because I am dysregulated by and not said this way, but they're feeling overloaded and dysregulated by their, their, their child.

And the question is like, please fix them. Please help this not be our reality is kind of the request. And I get it, you know, like I, I really do get it when I think about my own childhood. Um, [01:25:00] and there's some research to, to back this up. Children who are gifted or neurodivergent or have a disability are more likely to be abused.

I think that kids that are on the neurodivergent spectrum are more likely to be abused and neglected because, you know, if you're. How do you raise a child that is neurodivergent? Like nobody teaches you how to do that. And um, I think, you know, a lot of practitioners kind of bring that same perspective of like, okay, this, this child is pathological.

We need to get rid of these aspects of, of their personality and how they express themselves versus what does this child need to meet their nutritional needs and how can I support these parents in learning and understanding that and doing that in ways that are within their means and capacity. 

Dr. Brighten: Mm-hmm.

And nice also, you know, feeds into what you were talking about before, like as a society, if we shifted to accept and create that community that surrounds these people, then these parents wouldn't feel as overwhelmed. I [01:26:00] see this, it's a very difficult thing. As you and I are talking right now, it's autism acceptance month and, um.

You see the autistic moms, moms of autistic children, some of which are autistic themselves, some of which are not, and they really center themselves in this conversation. And the autistic community gets very angry. And I can understand why actually autistic people are angry. And as a mom who has wor who has also worked with these parents, I look at this and I'm like, this is somebody that is hurting.

This is somebody that's dysregulated. This is somebody who, um, because of the way that autism and even A DHD is viewed. It's a lot of immoral failing as a mother. Like you created this, right? I mean, there are, go search the podcast space and you will find hot takes everywhere about, mom was obese, mom didn't eat this, mom did this.

Mom, mom, mom, mom, mom is the problem. And she [01:27:00] created the autistic child. Therefore, this is her burden to bear because she made this, she created this, she did something wrong. So therefore she should have to struggle. And I think we have to hold space for, we need to center autistic voices and like we can't solve the issue that is a societal issue through nutrition alone, or by saying, I, I mean, it's.

Insane that we ever expect that a single parent, which is often what happens, 'cause one has to still work, can be the sole provider and caretaker of a special needs child on, you know, and this is not just autism of any kind without ever getting support or even a break. And I think that is something that's also very problematic, that isn't talked enough about in the conversation of like, if your child is dysregulated and there's never space for you to regulate yourself, how can you co-regulate that child?

It's not going to happen. [01:28:00] 

Tim Frie: Yeah. How do you do that? And I mean, it's like you cannot expect someone to know how to guide someone else through their body and the experience of their existence when they don't even know how to do that for themselves. And you know, I have, you know, I've always kind of felt like an outlier in this.

C, child abuse, childhood trauma community because I, I don't have any bone in my body that is angry at my parents for what they did or what I experienced as a kid. I have so much empathy and compassion, and I also acknowledge, no, I didn't deserve to be treated that way. Yeah, maybe they were doing the best, if that's their best.

All that kind of sucks. But also I understand their childhood and I get it. Not saying that it was okay, I'm not absolving them from whatever the responsibility may be. But, um, I, I think that there's this perspective that like, you know, there's no room for the parent in this conversation. I completely agree with you.

Like, let's, let's center the people who have lived this [01:29:00] experience and have, um, you know, insight to share with us. Um, and, you know, being a parent of a neurodivergent child or a child with a disability, it's really fucking hard. You know, it's, it's really tough. And if you don't learn how to navigate your own body.

How could you possibly, you know, help someone else do that, which is your point. And I think this brings us back to, again, like these systemic and institutional structures and barriers that make it impossible for people to have support, um, or, or get access to support that they actually need. You know, I grew up in, like I said earlier, it's really dilapidated home, but it was in a rural area.

You know, I drove 50 minutes each way with my parents to see my pediatrician. Um, we had to go out of state. We had 

Dr. Brighten: like the same childhood. Like I grew up in the sticks too. That was totally like, 

Tim Frie: oh, wow. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, this was like at one elementary school, two intersections, like, you know, very, very small towns.

Oh, I 

Dr. Brighten: remember when they put in the first stop late. 

Tim Frie: Oh, that's exciting. Yeah. We, 

Dr. Brighten: we drove to go see it every, it was like a whole moment. That's 

Tim Frie: [01:30:00] exciting. Yeah, we had the one main intersection, two gas stations, and I remember there was a subway and like that was a, you know, it was a food desert. There was no grocery store, nothing like that.

There was like. Junior's general store, you know, by the fire department. Um, but you know, when you grow up isolated, you know, my, my mom was very far away from, from her parents, you know, they, they did live with us for the first couple years of my life, but when they moved, they were a thousand miles away.

And when you have complicated family dynamics where you don't have a support system and you don't have the privilege of hiring, um, you know, any sort of support and you have to work, you know, of course you're just gonna be looking for like, somebody please solve this for me. Like, take this for me. And you're seeing it as a pathology.

You don't even have time or capacity to sit down and think about this stuff that we're sitting here talking about. So, um, you know, I, I just, I think what we need to do is move towards a, you know, I'm a very nuanced thinker, like always see multiple levels and perspectives, and I kind of think that's the cure for a lot of what [01:31:00] we're, we're, we're needing right now.

We need to accept. That there is nuance to all of this and that there's more than one way of being and one way of living and one way of existing, and we need to figure out how to do that together. 

Dr. Brighten: Mm-hmm. I wanna talk about the restrictions and the elimination diets that you see. A lot of functional medicine providers tout as this is the thing that is going to help your child, who is autistic, has a DHD is having behavioral issues.

Maybe it's not named yet. I constantly see posts about this and knowing the vulnerability of the community, it's something that I'm like, you are doing harm full stop. Without exception. Your intentions may be good, but it is so clear to me that you do not actually understand these conditions enough to understand that making a blanket statement of restriction, restriction restriction can cause detrimental harm in this community.

Can you talk about that? 

Tim Frie: Yeah. You know, [01:32:00] I personally never recommend, um. Elimination diets or overly restrictive diets, I don't think anybody should be unnecessarily prescribing restrictive diets. Um, because, you know, number one, that that degree of intentional restriction requires a lot of cognitive effort.

And a lot of people, when they remove things from their diet, they're, they're told take out corn, wheat, and soy and dairy and gluten, you know, all of these things and sugar. But what do you replace it with? Like, where are you getting that energy from? And for people who have really low degrees of nutritional literacy or culinary literacy, they don't know how to cook, well, I'm going to process foods then, and I'm gonna have to stand there in the grocery store and read all these labels and figure out what I can and can't eat.

Um, and, and if I'm needing to do this for my child who might have sensory, um, you know, processing challenges, um, or might have interceptive awareness challenges, or maybe they have some other disability that just makes it difficult for them to eat, um. Yikes. You know, um, and the risk [01:33:00] of eating disorder with that as well is, is astronomical, you know, there the association between the, or there's a greater risk of developing multiple different types of eating disorders and disordered eating if you're neurodivergent or of PTSD or A DHD or you know, any number of things with these, um, elimination diets.

I think that a lot of the elimination diets. In the functional medicine and naturopathic space are kind of used as a hail Mary A. Little bit. It's like, well, we're just gonna eliminate all these things and we'll just reintroduce it and hopefully this works. I don't know. There's actually not a ton of evidence.

You know, there's been a, there was a study study recently that was grossly misrepresented by a lot of people that, um, you know, are in this space and, um, you know, that, you know, most of us don't know how to critically appraise research. And, uh, that's, uh, you know, demonstrated in, in our, our public health, which is not an individual failing though.

I think that's another systemic thing as it relates to, you know, nutritional and health literacy. But, um, you know, [01:34:00] I, I think recommending an elimination diet is, it's, it's leading with the assumption that the food is the problem. Again, you know, and, and what someone is experiencing might not have anything to do with food.

Like, yes, food does influence our neurobiology, but that's, that's also not a great experiment either. Like, okay, we're gonna eliminate. All of these different things from your diet, and then we'll just try to, you know, hopefully you make it through it for 12 or 16 weeks. Um, that's, that's not a great practice.

And, and something else I've also seen is people following these restrictive diets for a very, very long period of time, like six, eight months or longer. And then, you know, they, they're, they reach this point where they're just physically depleted. They're cognitively completed, and they develop so much food, fear that they are ter terrified to reintroduce things or they become convinced that they have like an allergy or a histamine intolerance or reaction.

And some people do have histamine reactions to food, but it's difficult [01:35:00] when you're following these elimination diets for long periods of time to differentiate between, am I having a physiological response to the anxiety about this food? Or is it a reaction to the food? And, uh, that, that can be tough to kind of sort through as well.

Dr. Brighten: Yeah. And I certainly think, you know, for people listening, 'cause there will be people who are like, well I did, you know, an A IP diet, it changed my life. I did elimination diet, it changed my life. Absolutely valid. And I am one who will also say like, if we've got someone struggling with acne, for example, in polycystic ovarian syndrome, we know that dairy can be a driver in some individuals.

So we might test that and see is that true for you? There has been research and it needs to be replicated for us to truly understand that some autistic individuals actually will have antibodies that they mount a response in when dairy comes in, they're gonna have this kind of pseudo autoimmune response that's actually disrupting folate metabolism.

So [01:36:00] that might be true for that, you know, one set set of people. So I want people to understand it's not that food can't be a problem or that you might not need to eliminate something in test, but the eating disorder piece I think is a huge one. When. You are speaking to the neurodivergent community, especially with autistic people who love to get a very black and white fixed kind of mindset about certain things.

It's not true for everybody, but I'll, I'll speak for my personal experience, man. The food pyramid messed me up. Like worst thing to ever happen to me that gets introduced to me. My autistic brain's like, I love this. You mean like super structured? I have to eat six grains a day. I can count that, dah, dah, dah, dah, all this stuff.

Worst thing I did in my body, I had so much inflammation. I had so many problems. Like I look back at that and I'm like, Ugh. But and what was that? That was government guidelines. This wasn't an influencer, this wasn't an elimination diet, but it's, it's how easy that is and it was really. [01:37:00] Through my learning and understanding that the only thing that matters is how I feel in my own body and that I have to constantly test what's true for me.

Uh, not like every single day, some people are listening, but in different phases of my life. Like, just because, like, you know, I think especially as women, we have major phases in transitions in our life where things are gonna change. And once it was true for me that I could eat all these things, then it was fine.

Now maybe it's like I can eat that, but I, I can't eat it the same way that I used to. I have to pair that with more fat and protein, like, and those things change and I think that's the way we need to really be framing things. I think you've done so well in this conversation is like, what is true for you?

And also that there is no like one size fits all when it comes to this. I mean, when you consider, um, I think a lot. Like, I think about this a lot, um, how people are like, there's the rise of autism and there's so much more autism now. And when I say like, well, I want you to look at the, how the diagnosis have changed.

Look [01:38:00] at how the DSM changed. We knew there was a spectrum decades before it ever became a thing. It wasn't until 2015 that it would be acknowledged that A DHD and autism could coexist. And what was that based on? Mostly how easy you could make the provider's job. Not on whether or not that was true. It was how true, you know, how easy does this make the provider's job?

The DSMs been flawed, incredibly flawed. The way that psychiatric medicine has been taught and done, incredibly flawed because it's not always patient centered because it's very difficult. So we can't always be, you know, you have to think about the provider too. And so when we look at all of this and it's like, yes.

We are seeing more cases of autism. You were not diagnosed until your twenties. I didn't get diagnosed until my forties, which, um, is really, I don't know how people have been to you, but people have said to me like, well, if you could go that long in your life, obviously it wasn't that problem. Right? I'm like, yeah, no big deal.

If I could tell you how hard I cried when I got my diagnosis and I was like, [01:39:00] I'm not like a total weirdo broken person. I just got a different operating system and like the validity and the way I've been able to like basically be compassionate with myself, understand myself, work with myself, but it's all to say that, you know, there we are seeing more diagnosis of autism.

It doesn't mean that we haven't always existed, but we are seeing there are, you know, these severities, right? These extremes on the spectrum where people are really struggling. What do you think? Medicine practitioners across the board can do differently to start supporting the narrative of like, we can support symptoms without trying to change the neurodiverse individual.

Tim Frie: Yeah. Well, I, I think one of the biggest things we can do is start asking the person that we're trying to treat questions and um, try to, to understand their. They're, [01:40:00] well, one, acknowledge their humanity. That they're not just this pathology and this, you know, sack of symptoms that's sitting in front of you, that you need to figure out how to erase a mask.

Um, but, but also figure out and well reflect rather on how have my life experiences as a practitioner, how has that shaped my perception of this person that I'm sitting. With right now in front of me. And, um, how has my training shaped my perception of this person? What may I not know? Um, critical thinking honestly is just, you know, coming into these relationships, um, you know, with a perspective that you, you are there to provide support and care and resources.

You're not there to dictate or be this person's like health ruler. You're there to be a guide, you're there to be a strategist. You're there to help them figure out how to take care of themselves. They're not there to make you happy. Your, your patient is not there to make you happy in the same way that a parent's child does not exist to make the parent happy, right?

Um, so I think we really have to reconsider the dynamic of the [01:41:00] relationships that we have with our patients. And I would send the same message to researchers as well. You know, we're. Working with people and asking them to share their body with us and share very intimate personal details when we interview people or we go through or we put them through some sort of research and, um, maybe to some of us it's just another day at the job, but to them that's, it's a pretty significant interaction.

And, and participating in these types of interactions with healthcare professionals can be life destiny altering. And I think that we need to hold that responsibility and the reality of that with the care and respect that it deserves. 

Dr. Brighten: Mm-hmm. You know, it's interesting because I'll have providers argue with me like, oh, well I get fantastic results.

And, you know, they'll argue back about how they're just like the best in this arena. And it, it's always a red flag when they say cure autism, because I'm like, you can't. Cure the genetics, uh, that were laid down. And I, I always make this really [01:42:00] clear to people like the genetics are what autism is. Where we land on the spectrum is the symptom expression, which is influenced by epigenetics.

Food is one piece of that. And when I'm talking with providers, I'll, you know, that are quite frankly, being very egotistical. I'll ask them, how many of your patients unmask in front of you? Oftentimes they're like a deer in headlights, and they're like, what do you mean unmasked in front of me? What that mean?

Yeah. Yeah. And I'm like, I want you to ask your patient. Do you feel safe unmasking in front of me? Because if they, if they don't like, you have to ask, are you actually working for them, with them in partnership or are you now giving them another set of rules and a way that you expect them to behave and now they're showing up in this way because they don't wanna let you down, especially if they like you.

I, that's like a big part of masking is that we want to be liked, we want you to be happy with us. We [01:43:00] want to study this interaction and make sure that like. You, you feel good here as well. I think sometimes people see masking as being like this nefarious thing where you're pretending to be something else.

I'm like, actually, it's a whole lot of effort for your benefit because we really want you to be happy and we really like you. So it's something that if you are a practitioner listening to this, I want you to sit back and ask yourself, how many patients are actually unmasked in front of me? And if I don't know, let me start asking them because your outcomes may not be what you think they are because that individual, individual is highly masking and that when, what are we talking about here?

We're talking about mostly adults that are going in and seeking help, but it can also be children. And it's um, I don't know about you, but I can always pick out the autistic kid who's. Not even diagnosed yet at a party. They find me every time. They don't talk to other kids, they're talking to adults, and then usually me because I'm engaging with them.

Um, but it's something that I just watch [01:44:00] these interactions play out and everybody's like, I don't know what's wrong with my kid. Like, they won't play with the other kids. They only want, she only wanted, I was just at a birthday party. All she wants to talk about is unicorns, unicorns, unicorns, unicorns.

And I'm like, you know what? Little girl go off. No one wanted to hear about my geckos when I was a little girl. So like, I will sit here and I will listen to you about your unicorns. Like you just, you just go off about your, um, unicorns. But that's just all to say that even kids are out there trying to mask as well and trying to play the role.

Because as I remember in my autism assessment, the thing that I said that actually brought me to tears is that. And I don't even remember the question that was honest, but it was when I answered that I feel like everybody else got a manual to how to play the game of life. And I have been struggling my entire life to figure out how to just play with others and I'm constantly losing and I don't know why I don't have the manual.

And I just started crying and I was like, oh my [01:45:00] God. Like that's literally been my life. And it is most autistic individuals experience. And I just share this for people listening because if you're not autistic, you may not understand that. And that is also why we find ourselves in these slippery slopes of like, this diet works and this thing works, and like this is the thing.

And it's because like that person's trying so hard to play your game. 

Tim Frie: Hmm. Wow. Yeah. There, there was so much there. Um, yes. You know, to all of that. And you bring up the, the concept of psychological safety and the importance of that in the therapeutic relationship. And it's something that the conventional healthcare system, especially psychiatry here in the US, does not give any consideration to whatsoever, even though it is paramount to producing any sort or having some sort of therapeutic potential with your client.

I know in my case, you know, I have been, I'm going on year 17 of therapy next year. I've been in therapy half my life, and, um, I did not, you know, this, this was missed in your case. Like I really, one thing I've appreciated about [01:46:00] you and you sharing your story online is you're like, yeah, you were late diagnosed and the late diagnosis came as a result of negligence and, and, and potentially malpractice.

You know, I don't know the, the full story, but in my case, you know, I was in therapy. It wasn't until year 12 or 13 that I had a therapist who. Spent, I could tell she was working up to something with me in a way that I'd never experienced with other therapists before. And it was that same year where she had suggested getting the neuropsych evaluation and explained why she had this suspicion.

Um, that was also the first year where I was able to really start trauma therapy. 'cause I finally felt, I was like, wow, this person sees me like, okay, I am willing now to share things about myself with you in ways that I have not shared, um, you know, with, with any other provider before. And most of us have these transactional relationships with our clients where you can't really establish psychological safety in what, 7, 10, 15 minutes, you know, with your primary care doctor or whatever.

And I think that's [01:47:00] also part of the reason a lot of people go to and seek out integrative and functional and naturopathic medicine because you're getting more time with a provider. And that's really important. And um, ideally you find someone who. Creates that safe environment and you, you feel that you can unmask.

Um, but for me, like I'm still working on what that even looks like. You know, right now I'm still in a space to be completely transparent where I don't even put my psychiatric history down on an intake form because I don't want any sort of stigmatization. Because when I have, even in the past couple years, I've felt so infantalized and I felt so misunderstood, or I felt like, you know, people would see that autism diagnosis and they would just be like, okay, whatever.

Anyway, you know, I just have no. Uh, concept of the implications of that in the context of our relationship. So 

Dr. Brighten: I think what you're speaking a lot to is we have to shift the conversation to quality of life. And instead of saying, what's the root cause for your dysfunction, right? And, and [01:48:00] let's be really fair, no matter what medical paradigm you were trained in, if you are in your thirties, forties, fifties, you were taught that autism was one of the worst things that could be diagnosed.

I remember sitting in med school and um, and this is like the first hint that I was like, wait a minute. Because they were like, oh, autistic children don't make eye contact. And I was like, I don't make eye contact. Like I never make eye contact. I like, and people were probably like. Who know me in real life are gonna be like, yes you do.

I look at your forehead. Okay. Like, I'll out myself. I don't. And I was like, it's, it's difficult for me to make eye contact. It takes a tremendous amount of energy and I don't even know why we need eye contact. Like, I'm like, you know, I'm just sitting here like having this whole conversation in my head.

And then they're like, oh, but autism just affects little boys. It's a little boy disease. If you're a girl, you don't have autism. And I was like, oh, okay. So maybe [01:49:00] I'm like safe. I don't know. Um, but there's just so much that we have gotten wrong about it. And then to now assert that like we can find the root cause or we can, it's like really, because we still don't understand what's going on.

And you know, as I said to you before we ever hit the record button, you know, everybody wants to find the way to prevent autism. What happens when they learn that autistic people make autistic babies? We've been there before. In, it hasn't been that long ago where forced sterilizations was part of like the US practice, where even women weren't consenting to it.

That's what it's called, forced. But women didn't even know. They weren't E they didn't even know. So if you had something, you're like, I don't wanna put this on my chart because of the way I will be treated. It is so much worse for women. But it is something that I'm like, you know, I see these really big names in health.

I see leaders in, you know, health and they're touting this [01:50:00] message. And I'm like, how are you gonna sleep at night if we, if we decide that yes, it's that autistic people make autistic babies and that's the cause of autism and we want to still cure that. I think we have to shift the conversation to quality of life.

Like I. W when it comes to being autistic, when it comes to having a DHD, when it comes to PTSD, as you've brought up, like we have to look at quality of life, which actually raises the question that we hear a lot of is that trauma causes neurodiversity in, especially in the realm of A DHD. We hear that conversation a lot, but because you had childhood trauma, that's what caused your A DHD.

What does the research say about that? 

Tim Frie: Yeah, you know, it's definitely not my area of expertise despite having the lived experience, but my understanding of the research is that there trauma does not cause a neurodevelopmental disorder. You know, like it's kind of a misunderstanding of what A DHD is. You know, it starts in [01:51:00] development and I think it's more accurate to say that traumatic stress, toxic stress or childhood adversity causes other functional brain changes and neurobiological consequences that can.

Change the severity or intensity of those A DHD symptoms. So if you have areas of the brain that are more excitable or, you know, areas of the brain that are, you know, hyper aroused or hypo aroused as a result of trauma, and you already have some altered neurochemistry or some different anatomical differences as a result of A DHD, I think they, you know, they're, they're kind of amplifying each other, you know, and they're, they're interconnected.

Yeah. I, I personally don't, um, I have not read or seen anything compelling enough to convince me that trauma causes A DHD 

Dr. Brighten: whenever I see people spouting that, I just think you wanna know the most traumatic thing for somebody who has a DHD or autism. It's being undiagnosed and being, having the expectation that you [01:52:00] should be neurotypical with absolutely no support.

And so. It's very hard to say that trauma caused something, especially in the context of childhood trauma, as you said, because if your child is neurodivergent, odds are the parent's neurodivergent, and if they never, they didn't know that about themselves. They don't know how to take care of themselves, but also they don't know how to parent that child.

Trauma happens and it may not, it's not even the intention. It's not, I think it's really important for people to understand this is not like. People are full on beating their children kind of trauma. It can be getting dysregulated and screaming at your child who like, you know, spillt the milk everywhere.

Um, and that happens repetitively in different contexts because you are so dysregulated and it's all about does the organism interpret that as a trauma? And so to me, I'm always like, tick her egg. Right? We can't really say, and then we, it's always the flaw that I find so often in these studies that are like, this is what led to having an [01:53:00] autistic baby.

And I'm like, was the mother autistic? Was the father autistic? Oh, we didn't check that. I'm like, of course you didn't check that, because that's not compelling for you to get your next research grant. Like, I mean, that's maybe, maybe it's not so, um. You know, monetarily driven as I'm framing it right now, and more shortsighted that like you actually don't understand the people that you're studying.

Because again, we don't tend to center the voices of these individuals. And you know, for every woman listening, this is very much how women's health is as well. We don't necessarily center the voices of women. We look at what happens to men and we think this is good enough. Like we'll either use that or we'll, we'll, we'll just modify it a little bit.

And I think we have to really start reframing these conversations and in line with trauma. For people who are listening, how can they leverage nutrition as one vehicle of support in healing their trauma? 

Tim Frie: It's really what I've been saying, Dr. Brighton, it's learning how your life [01:54:00] experiences have shaped your relationship with food and your body and your health.

And that requires conscious. An intentional effort to do that. And it's not easy and it takes time. You know, if I wanted to figure out how to make $50 million this year, I would create a trauma diet and I'd create like a trauma supplement protocol and you know, just sell that. But that's, that would be, you know, the biggest grif of the year because there is no, same with A DHD, same with autism.

There is no supplement, there is no diet that is going to cure any of this. But there are ways of eating and different dietary patterns and different bioactive compounds and food and different compositions of macronutrients in our meals where we can learn how to eat and feel better and think better and, and just enjoy our existence better by giving our body what it needs.

But before we can do that, we have to learn how to do that. 

Dr. Brighten: Ah, so well said. Well, thank you so much for taking the time to sit down and chat with me. This has been a very insightful conversation. I know [01:55:00] it's gonna help a lot of people, not just who are struggling with food, but those who are looking to feel validated in their experience.

So I really appreciate you. 

Tim Frie: Yeah, thanks for having me. This has been great. 

 

Dr. Brighten: I hope you enjoyed this episode. If this is the kind of content you're into, then I highly recommend checking out this.