Melatonin Benefits: Why Your Brain Needs Darkness for Better Sleep, Brain Health, and Healthy Aging | Deanna Minich

[00:00:00] Many people are actually deficient in darkness. 

Melatonin is so much more than just about sleep. 

It's an anti-inflammatory. It's a mitochondrial regulator. It's an immune enhancer. She's an award-winning nutrition scientist and one of the leading voices in functional medicine. 

Honored with one of the field's highest distinctions for her contributions to integrative health.

Dr. Deanna Minich is here to transform the way you think about nutrition, hormones, and healing. 

We need that full spectrum blue light in the morning to wake up the hormones, cortisol, testosterone. That decline with age in melatonin is also connected to the rise of neurodegenerative conditions. 

What does this melatonin pause look like?

I wanna talk about melatonin. Everybody's like, "It's a sleep hormone," but melatonin is so much more than just about sleep. So talk to us about melatonin. 

I'm glad that you s- you see that because not everybody does. Melatonin is ubiquitous. It's throughout our body in pretty much all bodily [00:01:00] fluids and compartments.

It's in the brain. It's in our mitochondria. In fact, you know, it's, it's an ancestral molecule. So it has at least six functions that I can think of. Of course, it's setting the circadian rhythm that we know and think of with regard to sleep. 

Mm-hmm. 

It's also an antioxidant, but it's a little bit different than, like, a vitamin C or a vitamin E.

Vitamin C is water-soluble. Vitamin E is fat-soluble. Melatonin can actually flex to both, can be water and fat soluble, so that makes it unique, and it allows it to get in many different places. It's an anti-inflammatory. It's a mitochondrial regulator. It's an immune enhancer, so it can actually stimulate the immune system, which is why we heard a lot about it during COVID.

And then the last thing that I think about that not many people realize is that it is a neuronal growth enhancer, so brain-derived neurotropic factor. We think of just brain health in general, like neuronal growth and stimulating that, and [00:02:00] also as part of the brain, the glymphatic fluid flux. 

Mm-hmm. 

So at night when our neu- our neurons shrink to allow for more convection outside of the brain, it seems as though, at least we can gauge this from preclinical studies, that melatonin has a role in that process.

So it's all regulated based on sleep, circadian rhythm. And so as we get older, from puberty on, our melatonin that's produced from our pineal gland starts to go down. So Dr. Dican Weatherby, you probably know him. He, uh... I was on a podcast with him, and he was asking me about melatonin, and he said, "It sounds like melatonopause."

And I said, "That's very clever." We think of all the menopauses. Mm-hmm. Andropause, menopause, perimenopause, um, thyropause. And so yeah, we, we go down in melatonin. And so it's been thought that that decline with age in melatonin is also connected to the rise of neurodegenerative conditions. Mm-hmm. So yeah, I mean, I think, um, you know, I'm [00:03:00] presenting constantly now on chronobiology, circadian rhythm, uh, the, the photometabolome and looking at melatonin because to me, melatonin is a circadian nutrient.

We actually need it. Mm-hmm. Just like we need sunlight, we need darkness, and many people are actually deficient in darkness. They're just not getting enough. 

Say more about being deficient in darkness. 

So at night, when most people need to be bathed in the lack of light, what we have is the artificial light of devices, of technology, and not only does that have implications for electromagnetic fields and the toxicity of that, many people are talking about their electricity kind of sensitivity that they're developing- Mm

whether it's headaches or tingling, they can't sleep right. Well, that's also connected to all of that artificial light at night. So having the enrichment of blue light at night can be very stimulating, and then it doesn't allow us to produce the melatonin that we need from the pineal gland to set the signal of sleep.[00:04:00] 

So what we actually need at night is more of the red, pinkish, oranges he- orangish hue. 

Mm-hmm. 

So if we have that in the absence of blue light, then it kinda sets the stage for, okay, let's, let's start to move into the rhythm of sleep. We need that full spectrum blue light in the morning- 

Mm-hmm ... 

to wake up the hormones, cortisol, testosterone, and then as we make our way through the day, we start to move towards red, pink, orange, right?

And then that keeps us in alignment. But unfortunately, we flip-flop that. Many of us don't have the bright morning light, and then we bring it in during the evening- 

Mm-hmm ... 

when that becomes much more excitatory. 

Yeah. And I think for anyone listening, if you just spent a day outside, you would see the rhythm of nature.

The rhythm of nature is a bright blue sky, lots of sunlight early in the day, then we've got the sunset, right? Mm-hmm. And the hues and the color spectrum changes. Yeah. And I think, you know, there's probably some people listening to this being like, "Really? All [00:05:00] this color stuff?" But you can actually see the rhythm of the light spectrum in nature, and that is, for all intents and purposes, exactly how we evolved, is to be in rhythm with nature.

Yeah. 

I'm curious, you know, for people listening, what does this melatonin pause look like? How could someone listening identify, am I struggling with a melatonin decline? 

Yeah. Well, first of all, if, um, if you're a shift worker- 

Mm-hmm ... 

that is just right off the bat something to be looking at because now you have flip-flopped your rhythms and you're no longer in alignment.

So there are ways to use melatonin supplementally to help with that and, like, set that rhythm kind of, uh, more like you have to tell your body, now you need to start to set the stage for sleep. So you can do that. It's not always optimal, though, right? And we see that there are a lot of health issues with shift workers.

Yes. So we have to look just big and broad, like how are we living? And are we living in a more- I would say are our environments, again, more electrically lit, or what is our situation there? But in general, like, if we're [00:06:00] stressed, I mean, stress wears away the pathway to creating healthy levels of melatonin.

Mm-hmm. Because we have tryptophan, and 95% of tryptophan goes into making energy, NAD, and so we kind of move into that kynurenine pathway. But then there's another part of that pathway which goes to serotonin and melatonin. But if we're stressed, we're gonna start taking more of what should have gone into serotonin and melatonin- Mm-hmm

and now we start to have disruptions with neurotransmitters, and we move it over to get energy, because stress begets the need for metabolic energy. So what else will it look like? You know, sleep disturbance, potentially, uh, just feeling groggy, aging, accelerated aging. In fact, it was so interesting, because I had the opportunity to interview several of the different melatonin researchers who have spent their lives researching melatonin, and I actually met with them in person like this.

They're in their 70s and 80s, and they were all so vital. 

Mm. 

And I was thinking- 

Say more. Everyone- [00:07:00] Everyone's like, what? 

They're all taking melatonin. 

Yeah, yeah. Do you take melatonin? Do you recommend people take melatonin? Like, not everyone listening, we're- we're not your doctors. 

Right. Um, I do. 

Mm-hmm.

Because it naturally goes down. But here's the thing that I think is really important in that message, not to take it to the point of excess or supraphysiologic levels. I think restoring what you had. Mm-hmm. You know, if we think of our middle age levels, we are at a third of what we had when we were children.

Yeah. Children actually have the highest melatonin, and then when they start to go through puberty, it comes down. So I'm in my 50s. I'm at, like, 10% of what I had when I was in my childhood. 

Mm-hmm. 

So taking a 0.3 milligram low dose of melatonin, because people worry about, oh, safety, what about does my body stop making melatonin?

But if you're taking that low dose and you're timing it correctly, and I take a plant melatonin called Herbatonin, which I love- Mm-hmm ... and it has been [00:08:00] studied against synthetic melatonin, and it has other things from the plant which make it much more anti-inflammatory, much more of an antioxidant. 

Mm-hmm.

So to me, the reason why I take it is for healthy aging, not for sleep. You know, many people think, "Oh, I can't sleep. I- I need to take melatonin, and more melatonin is better." That's not necessarily the cascade. We need to think- Yeah ... more at a root cause approach to sleep as to maybe it's not melatonin. But melatonin can be good for other things that could be disrupting your sleep at that root cause level.

Yeah. I take melatonin because there has been great research with endometriosis- Mm-hmm ... and adenomyosis management. More on the endometriosis, but listen, like, if- if you've got the cousin riding with you, adenomyosis, like all of us do with endometriosis it seems once we get into our 40s, it can be really helpful with that.

Last night I landed in Vegas. I didn't take anything. I fell right asleep. So for people listening, I just wanna back up what you're saying. You won't necessarily just taking [00:09:00] melatonin if you're taking a low dose won't necessarily mean that you can't sleep without it. But I think that we have to start to shift the focus away from just sleep- Yeah

because that's been the story of melatonin, and start to recognize there's a lot of chronic diseases that benefit from having melatonin, as you were saying, neurodegenerative diseases. Yep. Mm-hmm. It may p- play a role in that as well. I'm curious from the color perspective, as we were talking about before, we talked about the blue light as it relates to breaking down melatonin or preventing our melatonin from climbing.

Mm-hmm. 

What color do you see that actually, like, resonates with melatonin? 

Well, the skin produces melatonin in response to light- Mm-hmm ... you know, just regular sunlight, and so, or red light. But the skin melatonin, we just have to note, is a different kind of melatonin than the kind of melatonin coming from the pineal gland to signal the circadian rhythm.

Mm-hmm. 

So the way I think of it is we have pineal melatonin, which if you're asking for a color designation, that has to be more metaphorical. And [00:10:00] I would say since I connect it to the pineal gland, I think of it as, you know, all-encompassing white light. It carries all colors. Mm. It's primordial. It's... I call it the mother molecule.

Snap, is it beige? No, I'm just kidding. 

I can see that the title of this podcast will be something with beige, right? But then if we think of the non-pineal melatonin, so that would be whether it's in the mitochondria, it's in the skin, and what's really interesting is that we have this whole dynamic of all the many mu- the molecules, the metabolites that form in the skin upon connection with light, and that goes for vito- vitamin D as well.

Mm-hmm. So vitamin D and melatonin are kind of like brother and sister. They kind of operate in very similar ways. Uh, you know, I wrote a whole review paper on this with my colleagues about how, you know, it's two sides of the same coin. Uh, vitamin D is, is connected to the sun. Melatonin is connected to darkness.

But yet they are working [00:11:00] together- Mm-hmm ... especially on the immune side, in a lot of different tissues, especially the skin. 

Mm-hmm. 

So I think if you're talking about what is the color of melatonin in the skin and what it does it respond to, it's, yeah, it's more, um, I would see it as more red and connected to even full spectrum aspects.

I wanna go through the colors now. So you, uh, you use colors to kind of map what's happening in the body, and so I wanna just have you tell people, like, how does that work, this color mapping of the full spectrum? 

So, uh, one of the things about my perspective into science is that I've also brought out a lot of more of my spiritual aspects that I have also in tandem been researching throughout these years.

So I think some of us, you know, we have other interests, right? You know, so- Mm-hmm ... I started doing yoga when I was 19, and I really got into the, the chakra system, which would be, you know, these, [00:12:00] these areas of the body with a lot of activity. So with my Western medical eyes, I see those areas of the body as the endocrine system.

Mm-hmm. 

So to me, this is the psychoneuroendocrine immune system, which Dr. Candace Pert, Dr. Bruce Lipton, and so many others have talked about. So these are centers that have not just symbolic reference, but also color designations. So when I was studying science And also taking these yoga classes and then started studying with spiritual teachers I was seeing this connection of, okay You're seeing it like energy, but I'm seeing it like the science aspects.

So can't color be the meeting ground in the middle where, yes, red, we know the psychology of red, and we know that red connects to the adrenals, these reddish glands on top of the kidneys, which signal alert and cortisol, right? And then, you know, I was thinking about the ovaries and [00:13:00] testes and kind of like that orange, um, the yellow, the digestive system, the pancreas, liver, stomach, bile.

So bilious and yellow in there, right? Fire. 

Mm-hmm. 

And I also studied with a, a shamanic, um, woman and, you know, we learned of the elements in the body as well. So I started thinking, "Okay, why aren't all of these paradigms coming together?" The elements, the color, the chakra system, endocrinology, like I was seeing that they were all woven together through these common threads of thinking.

So when you ask me, like, how do the colors connect, so I'll just do them quickly. Red, the cortisol, and also the adrenals. So orange, reproductive glands and organs. Yellow, digestive system. Green, of course, go back to green. Green is the heart. Many people think of red as the heart, but actually in the chakra system, it's green, and an evolved form of the green would be a rose colored.

Throat chakra would be [00:14:00] this aquamarine color, blue-green. Um, the third eye, when I think of that, I think of the hypothalamus pituitary, and I think of this blue violet, and then the pineal gland would be white, which is really interesting because we think of the pineal gland calcification that can occur with age and how it becomes like almost like a crystal, right?

You know, but not in a good way. You know, we don't want that to happen. We 

want- Can you explain what that is for people who haven't heard that before? 

Yeah. So, um, the pineal gland can be subject to the accumulation of fluoride and other contaminants, which lead to changes in that pineal gland, which can lead to issues with whether it's melatonin or just the function of the pineal gland, which is all about that circadian rhythm- 

Mm-hmm

kind of sending that signal throughout the body, and I think that probably the pineal gland represents a lot more that we haven't really uncovered. If you think about it, melatonin was just uncovered in 1958, which seems like eons ago, but it's not [00:15:00] really. You know, in science terms, it's like we've just started to unpack this.

So you look at some of the different tryptamines and other types of serotonin type of metabolites. I feel like there's a whole universe there of looking a little bit deeper into is it possible that melatonin is connected into consciousness? 

Mm-hmm. 

And in fact, there was a really neat study in which they found that long-term meditators had higher levels of melatonin compared to people who didn't meditate.

So but that would, you know, long-term, not like a weekend meditator and all of a sudden- Yeah ... you have higher melatonin. This is sacred physiology that we have. So to me, my mission is how do we bring them together? And that interface for me specifically is color and creativity. 

Mm-hmm. For li- women who are listening to this right now, how can they leverage this color creativity for their health?

So let me do it with you. 

Let's 

go. What, what's your- [00:16:00] This is where I would start, and I've done so many workshops on this. Yeah. So the first thing I would ask you is what is your favorite color right now? 

Ooh, it's the green. 

It's the green? 

I, I'm like, yeah, vibing green. 

Okay. So with that, what that tells me is that, you know, to go deeper into the green.

You know, to really explore the green, paint the green, um, be in green spaces. Just embody that green as much as possible, because that in some way is like a nutrient. So you might need the vibration of green. Mm-hmm. So bringing you into the heart space. Again, it's a very expansive... Just like leaves on a tree, it's expanding you.

So there might be themes there of expansion, but then also compassion, love, and it might also be self-love. What I have seen sometimes with women is that when they avoid green, there's almost, um... And this is an observation, this is not science, but I see that there's an issue with them giving themselves love.

Hmm. Like, feeling like it's okay to do that. So green for you is right now your medicine. What [00:17:00] color do you find yourself least attracted to? 

Well, it's because it makes me look like jaundice, which is, like, lime green. It's like, I love limes. I eat a lot of limes, but, um, just, like, I cannot wear that lime green color.

So what that tells me more intuitively is that there's a need there for balancing your fire energy. Mm-hmm. Like, your ability to be outward in the world. Like, what I'm sensing from your favorite color and your least favorite is that your, your spirit, your, the sense of your being is really connected into being in a more loving space, and away from kind of this area that's, like, stressful and just, like, doing and outward.

And podcasting. You need a break. You need a vacation. So even color you can use as a quick diagnostic tool- Yeah ... of like, okay, where are they vibing? What do they need, and what do they need less of? 

Well, and as, as we're talking about this, I realize I said, like, that green. So I'm talking about, like, a [00:18:00] rich forest- Yes

like emerald green. That's the green we're talking about. But, like, I didn't even realize, like, when you're like, "Least favorite," and it's, like, a different green, right? 

Yes. 

Like, I was like, "I'm just vibing green, but not that green." 

Yeah. And what I took away from that was that I see that green as a combination of that rich green and yellow.

Mm-hmm. 

And I'm, I'm moving you into the yellow piece, because if we think of the solar plexus- Yeah ... and we think of the heart, it's like there's too much fire happening there. And so, like, again, it's like that nexus of looking at the heart versus- The fiery digestive system. And I might even ask you, like, you know, do you have digestive stuff going on?

Is that something that always comes up for you? 

Yeah. Well, yeah, digestive stuff is, like, the default, I think, of my system. Like, like, if I'm gonna get stressed or get sick, like, we're gonna default to digestive stuff. But what's really interesting is if I had to pick, uh, like, my, my secondary favorite color, it is, like, this burnt orange.

Like, I'm really loving, like, that burnt, deep orange. Tonester had a black orange. Oh my God, [00:19:00] yes, so yummy. It's very interesting though, 'cause I'm like... I'm basically like heart to pelvis, and we're just gonna skip everything in between right now. 

Yeah. Um, and your favorite co- color doesn't necessarily have to be a color that you feel like you wanna wear.

Mm-hmm. It could just be a color you like. And so when you say that color, what I get from that is that's more of a grounded orange, right? Mm-hmm. So that is taking you into the root sacral, and there's something, like, really grounding about that sense of creativity within you. 

Mm-hmm. 

So finding that place and anchoring down into that, uh, and also surrounding yourself with that color in order to find yourself more in that grounded space.

Mm-hmm. 

But I like that. That, that is a beautiful color. That could also be- You know, I, I think everybody has their own personal color of the year. It does- Yeah ... it's not assigned by an entity, right? We need to diversify all of that and then bring together the entire rainbow, whatever that is. Maybe for somebody it is beige- Mm-hmm

or it's [00:20:00] mocha or it's coffee colored, you know? And that for some of us would feel offensive, but it resonates for them. 

Yeah. I'd be curious, you know, just from your perspective, what about when people start gravitating towards certain colors of foods? So- Mm-hmm ... um, 'cause I, I think about you were talking about purple earlier on, it's like what do we really got?

We've got like purple potato, we've got purple cabbage, purple onion. Even though they call it red, it's a lie. I don't know why we call this thing red. I agree. I 

agree. 

I mean, they're clearly purple. But you know, sometimes people will start gravitating and they find themselves like, I think it's normal in the summer if you just wanna binge eat strawberries, right?

Or peaches or things like that, right? Because they're in season. But sometimes people really find themselves like they're wanting to eat the same thing every day and it's a particular color. I'm just curious your perspective on that. 

Yeah. Um, I have seen that in people and also in myself, and you can take that in a variety of different ways.

It could be purely physical, where you say that there's some nutrient in that food that that person [00:21:00] needs for s- their function. It could also be a taste thing where it's more emotional. 

Mm-hmm. 

Uh, it could be, um, I would also say a shape thing, where some people like the shapes of certain foods and the textures, and they're very drawn into that sensory, we, we'd call it a chemosensory aspect of food.

Mm-hmm. 

So sometimes it's a little bit more complex. But, um, here's a little thing that I do do with groups, especially with women on emotional eating. So let me just ask you, just to show how this works. Do you have a food that you feel like you get kinda fixated on or you crave and it's like a very specific food?

I'm neurodivergent, so we all do this, where we just like love a food, obsessive over a food, we only wanna eat that food, and then we never wanna eat that food again. So recently it was sushi. Sushi, okay. And I literally ordered in sushi like five days in one week, like eating the same exact sushi. But the thing I will say to you is salmon.

I will eat salmon anywhere, [00:22:00] anytime, all the time. Like give it to me- Mm-hmm ... any meal- Mm-hmm ... and it's always like a yes for me. 

Yeah. So I have an activity that, again, I like to do in groups, but I've done it one-on-one before, where if you said, "Well, Deanna, right now it's just sushi." Mm-hmm. Are you still on that sushi vibe, or you feel like that's passed?

No, I would've definitely eaten sushi yesterday. 

Okay. 

I'm still... So 

with sushi, what I would do, it's an activity called laddering. Mm-hmm. So it's getting into the subconscious of that food and its connection to you. And for everybody this is going to manifest in a little bit of a different way. So, um, what I would do is I'd have you close your eyes and I would say to you, "sushi," 20 times.

Mm-hmm. And you would just tell me quickly what that food- brings up for you. 

Mm-hmm. 

Uh, and typically the way that this happens in groups is I, I have a person, they have their eyes closed, and I say potato- Let's just say it's potato chips. They'll say, "Crunchy, um, crispy, yellow, salty." A lot of the sensory aspects come up.

Mm-hmm. 

But then all of a sudden you can tell, like, they kinda pause, and I [00:23:00] do it 20 times, and I wanna do it quickly 'cause I wanna get into that intuitive subconscious space. 

Yeah. 

And then you see that all of a sudden they go into a memory, and then they're like, "In a car, travel." And it's like, oh, wow, what does this have to do with potato chips?

Mm-hmm. And they're telling me the inner story of that food for them. And there's one woman in particular who I'm thinking of. She was in her 40s, entrepreneur, just type A type, very fiery. She came to me. She was having cravings. And so I'm like, "Well, what, let's talk about this." And she starts to relay a story about her daughter and how they were on a road trip and how they were packing and how she had to put potato chips in the car.

And I said, "Well, wait a minute. You needed potato chips for that trip?" And she says, "Oh, yeah, I packed the potato chips." And I said, "That's interesting." I said, "Do you mind if we do a little laddering on this?" And she said, "Sure." She didn't really know what that involved, and we did exactly what I just mentioned.

And for her, by the time I got to number eight, where I was saying potato chips over and over again, all of a sudden she paused and she started crying. And she's like, "I just have to [00:24:00] stop right now." She goes, "I'm having a memory of I'm 12 years old and I'm sitting in front of the television. My parents are gone.

I'm the only child, and they gave me a bag of potato chips and dip." 

Mm-hmm. 

And the potato chips became her friend, you know, became her comfort. And so every time she got stressed out, she didn't even realize how the potato chips were connected to comfort- Yeah ... in the absence of company. So she wrote me, you know, just we, we only did one session 'cause she felt like something shifted for her, and she- Mm-hmm

wrote me a card afterward. She's like, "I've never had this experience," where she saw the metaphor of the food in her life and what it was doing with her emotionally. And then she didn't crave potato chips. 

Interesting. Can someone do this laddering on their own or do they need to partner with someone?

Better to partner. 

Okay. 

You know why? 'Cause they need to hold space- Mm-hmm ... so that you can fully be in your subconscious. So do it with somebody that you trust and, and love and who knows you. And all they have to [00:25:00] do is just write down, um, all of the different words that you're saying, and then kind of look back and say, "Ah, what's the story here?"

And- 

Yeah ... 

it's actually better in a group because then the group can tell the story to the person and validate- 

Mm-hmm ... 

what they're seeing. Th- this actually makes me so happy to talk about because for so many women, um, we have very strong memories and connections into food that go beyond just, you know, the analytical space of, like, trying to figure it out, analysis paralysis, right?

Food is love. Food is connection. Food is... You know, it takes us back. I remember another woman with ice cream. When we worked with her in front of the group, she started crying as well because for her, she didn't realize this, but it was a memory of her father taking her for ice cream on Sundays in the summer.

And now she's, like, in her 40s, but she's still eating ice cream to try to resurrect the memory of being with her father, feeling carefree in the summer. 

Mm-hmm. 

So food is powerful, right? It's so many [00:26:00] different things to us, and if we can unlock it and have our eating story be told and witnessed, it can be really powerful.

Mm-hmm. What would you say to women who are listening right now who feel maybe stuck with their nutrition, they're feeling inflamed, they're feeling emotionally dysregulated? Where's a good starting place for them? 

Well, I do think that having a person, just like you were asking me, can I do this on my own?

I mean, even for us, you know, it... Even though we can know things about nutrition, I do think that having somebody on the outside to help work with us and coach us and give- Mm-hmm ... us perspective. Because at the end of the day, we all have blind spots. We all have things that we need to grow from, and I do think that peering into that.

And whatever that takes, you know, all the different health coaches that are out there, they all have different areas of focus. That might be something to entertain. But you have to find somebody who allows you to have the space, again, to let the symbolism come out. Get beyond the nutrition. Nutrition [00:27:00] is just a given, right?

Mm-hmm. But then there's the nourishment aspect of, like, okay, how is the daily meal nourishing us in deeper ways that go beyond the physical body? 

I'm curious for you, what are your daily rituals that are absolute non-negotiables for staying both physically and emotionally aligned? 

Ooh. Yeah. Um, first of all, I have to sleep.

I'm right there with you. That is a non-negotiable for me 

as well. That is, uh ... And you know, many times what I'll tell people is you have to do at least one thing right. So whether it's nutrition, exercise, sleep, relaxation, relationships, you need one thing that just, like, shows up every time, and you do it 100%.

So for me, it's nutrition and sleep. I think I'm less good at exercise, although that's changing because I have to. So I just tether it to the things that I, I do well. Um, but you know, just simple things that are non-negotiable. I mean, I like to wake ... I'm a morning person, [00:28:00] so I leverage the morning to do most of my brain activities, um, whether it's, like, the writing, um, all of the emails, all the meetings if possible.

Um, but that first morning light is also really important. And like you, I'm really connected to nature. So we live, uh, in a small forest, and so I like to go outside. And, um, and just have that sense of, like, connecting. How I start my day is how the rest of my day goes. 

Mm. 

I mean, uh, I'm not doomed if it doesn't go well.

It's just that it's, it, it takes me more work to get it back on track. Whereas when my morning is right, it's like everything moves. So and that's everything from I'm hydrating, I'm pooping, I'm peeing, I'm, um, with my husband, we're having breakfast. We have nourishing conversation. I'm, like, petting my cat.

Like, everything just g- I'm listening to music. I'm kinda setting that stage for, like, physical, emotional, mental, like, okay, [00:29:00] now I'm ready for the rest of the day kind of a thing. 

Mm-hmm. '

Cause I'm not a night person. My husband's just the opposite. He's more of that creative musician, like- 

That's 

my husband too

ghost ahead late. I'm like, "I don't get that." I have to, like, be in bed by 9:00. 

Yeah. We're sitting in Las Vegas right now, and, uh, people last night were like, "Oh, come out. We're gonna go see The Wizard of Oz at the Sphere." And I fell asleep at 7:00 here, which is 9:00 PM for me. Right. And people are like, "Why do you go to bed so early?"

I'm like, "I have to." You have to. You don't- Yeah ... you don't wanna see me on less sleep. You wrote the book The Whole Detox. You mentioned that earlier. What does The Whole Detox actually look like? 

Yeah. So it is a program of where you have seven different aspects, and it's a, it's, of course, connected to color.

So it's 21 days. Every three days we move through a color, the colors of foods. So the first three days are all about red. 

Mm-hmm. 

So all the red colored foods come through in the recipes, and then the next three days would be orange. We kinda move through the rainbow. But what [00:30:00] makes this different from most eating plans is that I also embed seven parts into, like, the daily theme.

'Cause I'm all into themes and colors, right? So every day is, like, um, you know, like, it's about survival, about the body, and then we move into an emotion. Like, you track your emotions. You have a certain thought pattern that you're looking at. You have some small activity that you do that connects to the theme.

Then you have some kind of affirmation. As you can see, I'm working up. And then you have a visualization, then you have a meditation, and all of that only costs you, like, 30 minutes of your time. 

Mm-hmm. 

Including the recipes. They don't take very long. I wanted it to be very, very simple, but I wanted to touch on more than just nutrition.

So the color message, the symbolic theme threads through the whole 21 days. 

Mm-hmm. 

Just a quick story. My, my father is, uh, not into health, but Oh, he did do the whole detox program, and it was really interesting because he wore different colored T-shirts for each of the days of the [00:31:00] program that would coincide with the color of that day.

And you can see, like, on the red days when he was starting, he was looking kinda crotchety. But from that you know, he didn't really wanna do this. Don't listen to this. He's like, "

Ah." 

But then by the, the orange and the yellow, like, and by, by the end, just watching his pictures every day, it's like, oh my gosh, you look like a new person.

And you know, you're never a prophet in your homeland, so when your family member does something and has a great experience, it really means something. 

Mm-hmm. What is the biggest lie that women believe about their symptoms? 

That there's nothing that they can do about those symptoms. They feel really locked in, that they feel almost, as they go through this, this life path that we're on, it's like they're not comfortable with who they are becoming along that path, right?

Mm-hmm. And they kind of feel like they're locked into that. And I feel like it's like art, it's like sculpture, and we're constantly reframing and reshaping who we are. 

Yeah. 

So to me, the ultimate is, I mean, women are so [00:32:00] creative. We're physically creative, right? We think of pregnancy and babies, but that aspect of creativity carries over into the times that we're not fertile anymore.

Mm. So bringing that aspect of creative expression into our being-ness in that second has- half of life, I feel like that's the biggest lie. Like, we're, we're not really embodying and knowing that we have creative potential. 

Do you think that this lie is something that women have created, or that perhaps the narrative in medicine has created for them, and then we've been conditioned to accept this, that, like, there's nothing you can do about it, this is just part of being a woman?

I think the latter. I, I do think that society and the culture shape the, the imprint intellectually and emotionally, and it takes a lot for a woman to kind of buck that tide and say, "You know what? I'm gonna feel differently about this." Mm-hmm. And because not everybody around her [00:33:00] might be supportive in that way, and maybe it's at the workplace or in the family, or even with friends.

And so I do think it's... Because we don't see it in all cultures, you know? Yeah. I lived in, you live in Mexico, I've lived in Europe, and you just don't see it quite to the same degree that you do in perhaps places like the United States. 

Mm-hmm. 

You really feel it. You feel the polarization. 

Yeah. So I wanna ask you, is there a pattern that you have seen where symptoms show up when it comes to emotions that haven't been processed?

Yes. Uh, I do think that the body speaks. It speaks in metaphor and in symptoms, and many times the placement of those symptoms in the body can tell you what the message is. So, and in fact, when I first started seeing people just one-on-one and working through the, the therapeutic encounter, you know, everything was very physical.

It was kind of like, okay, you have inflammation, let's deal with it this way. But then the more that I started to track people and work [00:34:00] with them, I started to realize, like, oh, no, inflammation is not just physical. Mm. It's emotional, it is mental, it is even spiritual. So I do think emotions are a powerful vector.

At least what I see in nutrition is that many times our emotions are fueling what we eat, how we eat, and when we eat. So emotions do need to be worked through. And I think that so many women have a discomfort of that because we are told that emotions are weakness. 

Mm. 

You know, get over it, you know?

You're emotional. 

Yeah, you're s- you're such a crybaby. You know, what's with you? I mean, just even from a very young age, girls, I believe, are treated differently than boys with respect to emotions. Mm-hmm. I mean, sometimes there is some latitude there in terms of acknowledging that, but sometimes it can be derogatory.

Yeah. 

So I was one of those girls, actually, very sensitive and, you know, and, and that is the way that the nervous system processes those emotions. Mm-hmm. So when we shut that down and we say, "Stop crying," or, [00:35:00] you know, all the different things that we might say about People who are more sensitive, it's actually changing how we cope and how we can move those things through the body.

Which is why I do think that creative expression later in life, because we haven't had coping mechanisms, is so important. 

Mm-hmm. 

And that can come through in so many different ways. It can come through in interior design. It can come through in fashion, in visual arts, in sound, in poetry, in even beauty.

Like, uh, application. I see now, you know, so much in the way of aesthetics, and to me, it is the suppression that we have seen with creativity, and now it's just coming out in so many different ways. It's trying to get out. 

Okay, this is a bit of a tangent everyone, but you might be listening and having the same question or made the same observation other people have made.

Beige aesthetic, we have lost color in the world. Even Christmas has gone completely white, beige. Mm-hmm. People are not necessarily having, like, colored lights. I say this 'cause we're [00:36:00] recording right now in December, and it's been an observation that a lot of, uh, designers, so interior designers, are recognizing that we are not bringing color into our lives.

What are your thoughts about that? Where do you th- where... I would just love to hear your perspective- ... 'cause you're like the color guru in, in my space. Of like, what is happening that people- Yeah ... are just going all beige? And is that actually good for our health to not be surrounded by color? 

I'm smiling because Pantone just released its color of the year for 2026.

Oh, yeah. I reject you. 

I reject you, Pantone. 

And it was white. You know, white. And so, you know, what do we do with that? Um, I mean, we can see things very metaphorically, like it's a blank slate or it's, you know, time to clear the slate, or it's purification, cleansing. You know, every color has a message, so I don't wanna bash beige because beige has a place in the rainbow.

Mm-hmm. Just like black does and brown. Uh, when it comes to food, let's just start with something really physical, right? Yeah. So if we're 

eating- I was really hoping you would go with food. 

[00:37:00] Well, one of my books is called The Rainbow Diet- ... so, you know, I can't help but see it that way. And 

when we think beige, everybody lean in.

They drop it for us. 

So I, I do think of the color spectrum with respect to food, and if we're eating brown, yellow, and white foods, it does say something about our lives. Are we feeling more inflamed? Are we feeling burnt out to a crisp like a brown food that has been grilled, baked, and fried? Or are we just feeling kind of lackluster, like we don't feel nourished, we don't feel alive, we don't feel that vitality?

And w- when we change how we're eating, what's also really interesting that I have heard from people is that they start changing what they're wearing. They also start changing their environment. Case in point, I had a woman go through... Well, I had, like, a large group go through this more colorful way of eating program that I call Whole Detox.

And so I get people focused on the food, but what ends up happening is they start redoing their environment. Uh, I remember one person talking about how she had a charcoal sofa. Now she had to, like, change it [00:38:00] up. 

Mm-hmm. 

Uh, a woman working in a gray cube had to rainbow-fy it because it was just so, uh, suppressive.

So I, I guess, Jolene, the question is, if people feel nourished by beige, 'cause for some people that's, like, a really nice grounding color- Mm ... and it looks good on them, and they feel good with that- I'm 

literally wearing it 

right now. Oh, well, I was going to say, you must feel good in it. Uh, you gotta go with that.

But- It makes my hair pop, okay, everyone? 

Well, the green that you were wearing, that I saw you in, was also really stunning. 

So that is what Pantone missed out on. That green- Yeah ... has been, like, my recent obsession, and I really thought, like, that's gonna be color of the year. But you wanna... An interesting phenomenon is I'm wearing this green I've already decided, like, my gym, I'm, like, getting paint swatches and stuff.

Mm. I wanna paint it this green. Mm. This is, like, in October. Pantone comes out with this color, and I watch this phenomenon online of everyone saying, "No, we're... It's actually this green." 

Yes. 

And all these people sharing- That's true ... the same green- Yeah ... that I've been wearing, that I've been, like, thinking [00:39:00] about.

And, and so it can't be that, like, I was influenced by people saying this, right? We were all somehow on the same wavelength of what we thought the color of the year would be. 

Yeah. 

And even, um, shout-out, Tulster, like, their paint colors are phenomenal. They were even, like, presenting this green color, and I'm like, "Everybody was vibing green.

How did Pantone get it so wrong?" 

You're right. I saw that as well. Um, and let's just kinda feel out the energy of green for a second, because green is, like, the color of nature, healing- Mm-hmm ... health, growth, and I feel like so many people need that right now. They don't need as much white, where white is, again, blank slate, not nourishing.

Um, you know, white has its time and place. But green is earthy, and it makes us feel connected to something that's bigger than us. Mm-hmm. Uh, and if you even look from a marketing perspective in how they use color psychology, uh, green is used in businesses of health. Blue is used in businesses that create authority or a credible voice.

Mm-hmm. Like, [00:40:00] every color has its intention, and sometimes when you see fast food with red and yellow, I mean, there's- Yeah, I feel that. I was like- There's a reason for that ... gonna, I was gonna 

say talk to you about McDonald's. What's going on there? 

Well, red, um, is kind of in two paths. So red is urgency, emergency, action, so it kinda has this anger almost feeling.

Mm-hmm. It's reactive. It's the immune system. It's inflammation. So we need little bits of that, just not too much. The other side of red is passion- Mm-hmm ... vitality, blood flowing, you know, the heart. We think of Valentine's Day. Um, so but it d- it's a very active color. All of the warming colors, so red, orange, and yellow, all inspire us to physical action.

Green, blue, and purple all cause us to go on the inside, and they're much more introspective colors. Mm-hmm. So that's why it's kind of like in and out. Get your burger and leave. 

Yeah. 

Be active. Like, get that food. And it's, it's a color that draws us in. Yellow is the color of optimism. [00:41:00] So- You know, if you see yellow and you see red, it's like, "Okay, I need to be active with something, some kind of response, and then I'm gonna have some joy- Mm-hmm

and there'll be something optimistic and happy." So it's actually a very smart color combination- Yeah ... from that kind of a business. 

Yeah. So talk to me, if we're thinking about, like, the indigo, the blue, the violet, like, this is the side of the spectrum, and the green is more introspective. Yeah. Everybody gravitating toward this green, maybe, like, this...

We're all thinking we need to cultivate, like, our inner self- Mm-hmm ... this awareness. What is beige then doing? Like, what i- what is the vibe of beige? You're saying clean slate, and I just almost feel like if- You are the ones who set the color of the year, then you understand color psychology. Let's just guess here, right?

We don't know for sure Pantone's intention, but, like, if you were to pick beige and tell the world, "Embrace beige," what is that message behind that [00:42:00] color? 

It's grounding. 

Okay. Okay. 

Yeah. I mean, okay, so each color has its- That's 

very positive. I 

really- It is positive ... I like that vibe ... and that's where I feel like beige has its own medicine, right?

Mm-hmm. 

So every color has its own spectrum. So let's just take beige. So we have kind of, like, a tan beige all the way to a deep hue of brown- 

Mm-hmm ... 

and even into burgundy, and you can get into the reds there. But basically, brown is a grounding color. I connect it to the root chakra, which is all about survival and safety, like the lower body.

So we go to beige and browns when we wanna feel earthed. 

Yeah. 

Right? So that's kinda how I think about it. Orange is an interesting color. I want us to wax on orange and pink. 

Let's go. 

Because of your focus with women's health and, um, what's really, um, well, I have a personal story around orange and pink- Mm-hmm

which this is the color that I'm wearing, which has been challenging for me because growing up I would never wear anything pink. 

Mm-hmm. 

And even now I'm still, mm, I- 

I didn't wear pink [00:43:00] until my 30s- 

Yeah ... 

because I felt very, uh, like, and I don't think I was consciously aware of it, um, but it just felt too soft and I had to show up strong in the world.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And it felt, um, at times too apologetic, which it's interesting 'cause I had color analysis done before, and, um, th- you know, that was something that she, the woman had said to me, "You can't wear apologetic pink when you do the work that you do on stage." She's like, "Your bold red lip is the, is the color you need," like the color.

Huh. And I had been told forever, like, "You can't wear black and white," right? No one's supposed to wear black and white. And she's like, "Wearing black and a red lip is your, your message is bold like that. Like, you have- I like that ... to be that kind of, like, strength." And she's like, "And then in, in your personal life, that's where it's like lean into the pink- Hmm

lean into the softer." And it was just such an interesting perspective that I had n- it had never clicked for me that, like, I was consciously not choosing pink, I think, until I was, like, 38. But I [00:44:00] was like, "Okay- Interesting ... pink, let's 

go." Interesting. Yeah. Well- Let's just go back to food for a second- Yeah

because part of my master's study was on carotenoids. So carotenoids are plant pigments in nature, so they usually embody as the red of lycopene- Mm-hmm ... like in a tomato, or the orange in a carrot or an orange, and then the yellow of like... Sometimes you can't see the yellow outright, but like in kale or spinach, underneath that green you have yellow, like lutein.

Mm-hmm. 

So I studied the carotenoids, like this whole, like the carotenoid family. And so orange connects to hormones, and if you look at the ovaries, they concentrate certain carotenoids deliberately. Up to 14 different carotenoids have been identified in the ovary, which is kind of like, why? 

Mm-hmm. 

How did, how did that come to be?

The corpus luteum, which has that yellow color- Yeah ... is actually from the, the carotenes. So there have been studies looking at for women that eat more orange foods, how does that [00:45:00] impact their ovarian health? 

Mm-hmm. 

And there are a few studies, not a lot, showing better ovarian vitality. We need those carotenoids.

They go into our skin. 

Yeah. 

They go into our brain. Anything that's fatty. They're fat soluble, so that's where they go. But yeah, orange is kind of that warm, playful... It's even a sexy color. Like this is just a fun fact, but when I was doing research for The Rainbow Diet, I came across literature on guppies and birds that would exhibit certain plumage or something on their gills when it was time for mating- Mm-hmm

when they were more fertile, and usually it was the male that would wanna look like a lure and have more orange, right? It's kind of like it's an attractive warming color. It would catch the eye. So orange is... I kind of think about it like that. It's a fertility color. It's connected to the carotenoids, and it's so much a part of like connected to our fat, I, I would say throughout our body, our adipose tissue, but then subcutaneous fat, [00:46:00] like all the different kinds of fat, which I see as very yin.

Mm-hmm. 

You know? People, um, might be polarized against fat because it has a negative connotation, but to me, I see the body in terms of metaphor and energetics. So to me, those colors, like the orange and the pinkish tones that you would find in a flamingo, as an example, with the carotenoids- 

Mm-hmm ... 

and then connected to fat tissue.

I know it might sound kind of like out there, but it's kind of like a spiritual thing. It's like it's pointing us to the feminine aspects. 

Yeah. I feel like I hijacked your pink story by me talking about pink. So tell me, tell me your pink story. 

Sure. Um, well, I, I was a nerdy scientist. I still kinda am. Um, and so I would always wear a lot of black and white- Mm-hmm

kind of like you, and just kind of like maybe green or blue or purple sometimes. But really, you know, I didn't put too much stock in clothing. But I had this, um, just a negative feeling about pink. Mm-hmm. Any time I would see marketing around pink, it felt like it was- I don't know, [00:47:00] connecting to women in a way that was, uh, kind of connected to a cultural stereotype that I didn't wanna be associated with.

So fast-forward, I'm doing my PhD in my late 20s, and I would get stressed out repeatedly. And on the weekends, um, I started painting, and I would start to paint, and this is where I would let go of my intellect and just be like ponytails, sweatpants, messy. This is where my perfectionist self would not show up.

And I would get messy with paint, and I noticed I would paint in pink, gold, and orange with big swirls, like sweeping swirls, and then I had to have them all around me Then I met my, who is now my husband, and he would look at these paintings, and he said, "Deanna, you're putting your ovaries and your uterus everywhere."

And it was really true because I had endometriosis. I had a blocked fallopian tube on my- Yeah ... left side, and, uh, yeah, there was something coming through that my body was speaking to, and the color that I kept painting was, like, a nutrient. Mm-hmm. I [00:48:00] kept avoiding pink and orange and gold, but yet I needed it.

Like, there was something in those colors that I needed, just like carotenoids, you know, in food. Yeah. So that's, that's kind of it. And now I try to embrace all the colors. Like, I'm r- very purposeful even about my wardrobe, so, like, I, I have it all segmented into the rainbow. 

I do, too. Okay. I do, too. Oh my gosh, you guys.

I will take a photo and post it. You post it on Instagram, too. We'll share it with you guys. But yeah. I also have my library the same way of the- Do you? The- 

Oh, 

I've 

thought about that ... 

the health book section only because, like, I also read romantasy, and those are usually, like, gray. Like, maybe red. Like, they're really r- black, you know?

Yeah. But, like, the health books- Mm-hmm ... and it's so interesting to me how, to see the certain categories and what they gravitate towards. True. And you know the publishers know the marketing around that, right? Right. So my books are, like, fuchsia and- Yes ... and pink and purple. Um, and, you know, y- there's, but there's a whole spectrum of, like, brain books, and they're all [00:49:00] white.

Like, they're all- Uh-huh ... the colors are white. 

Yeah, that's true. A lot of the health books are white with some pop of color. 

Mm-hmm. 

Yeah, and that's... I, I like that you do that with your books. Yeah, um, purple is, is not a common color within the health sector, which is kind of interesting, and purple also is an interesting color because it rarely occurs in nature.

Mm-hmm. 

So when you survey people about the colors of food that they're eating, purple and blue kind of together is, that's the color category that occurs the, the least in what we're eating, which is unfortunate. It's a brain color. But it's interesting that we don't even see it in the spines of books or, like, at least I don't see it.

I do have a segment in my library of spiritual books- Mm-hmm ... and then I start to see more magenta and- 

Yeah ... 

violets. Um, and it is seen as more of a, a regal or a precious or even a, a spiritual or a metaphysical color. 

Mm-hmm. 

So yeah, l- l- what you're saying, you know? There's a time and a place, and there's a certain connection to every color.

Yeah. [00:50:00] Let me ask you, for women who are listening right now, if there was one thing that you would encourage them To stop doing in their life, right? We, we're always focused on giving women more, do more, add this. If there's something you would encourage them to stop doing today, what would that be? 

Look at your self, um, talk.

You know, what we tell ourselves. And I feel like, um, I'm just gonna toss this out there, um, so many women are straddled by perfectionism, and including myself in my early days. It was kind of like wanting to be perfect, needing to show up in a certain way, being the people pleaser, all the Ps, right? And so I feel that we put ourselves in boxes, and then after a while, we kind of move into the 40s and 50s and 60s, and we move into this space of more acceptance.

So for women listening, you know, how do you embody that sense of love, acceptance, letting go of the perfectionism, the control, you know, things needing to be a certain way? 

[00:51:00] Mm-hmm. 

And really just go with your flow. I feel that the more... When I look to elders, when I look at people that are role models for me, whether they're more celebrity figures or just even people in my lives, my, my own life, I, what I see is, like, I just like the feeling like they don't really care so much now what other people are thinking.

They just show up with who they are at that moment. Like, not every hair needs to be perfectly in place. Makeup can be off. You know, maybe they stop wearing makeup. You know, I really love the authenticity of that. 

Mm-hmm. 

So for all women listening, you know, to release the hold that you have on yourself and all the expectations.

I'm sure other people have said that, 'cause I feel like it's a message that needs to get out there, and to know that it's safe to do that, and that when you do that, it gives permission to other women to do that as well, which is a great gift. 

Nothing about your answer is fluff, but I feel like some people, to go the extra step, are gonna need it rooted in a little more [00:52:00] science.

So let's tell women, what does negative self-talk do to your inflammation at a cellular level? 

Well, as above, so below. So as above, in your mind, if you continue to tell yourself these self-deprecating thoughts, your body just goes on alert. It starts to set up immune signals, inflammatory response. And so, like, now, like, there's this sense of distrust in the body, like lack of love of self.

You start to contract. Mm-hmm. You know, posture may even change. Like, so many different things about us could change. You know, one stressful event has been shown to lead to leaky gut. 

Mm-hmm. 

So, you know, just keeping ourselves in check and reminding ourselves that without the full love of ourselves, we can't really expand into the life that we have.

So one quick thing, if you want something really practical, 'cause I, I know what you're getting at in terms of, like- You know, [00:53:00] again, um, Bruce Lipton would tell us that your biology becomes your psychology, your psychology becomes your biology. Dr. Caroline Myss talks about that too. She has a really great book called Anatomy of the Spirit.

It's an oldie, but it's a great book, and it does talk about the connection between body and mind, right? So if you have a symptom, yes, look at the physical aspects, but then also look to see what do I continue to feed myself in terms of a thought or an emotion that I haven't dealt with. You know, I just recently posted on lymph, the science and spirituality of lymph.

Oh, we could have had a whole hour on just lymph. 

I know. 

I know. I think it's so fascinating- It's so good ... and 

we 

don't- It's, it's juicy. And we don't talk about it enough. 

Well, thank you for having me. It's been a real delight to, um, have a conversation about color. I don't get to do that very often, so thanks for opening that up.