Late Diagnosed ADHD and Autism | Rich & Rox Pink

[00:00:00] I always grew up feeling like a fake and a fraud. It leads to that isolation of, like, "I'm the worst person alive. I can't stay with someone, so I'm gonna just be alone." Rich and Roxxxy Pink turned the realities of ADHD, autism, love, and relationships- Into a global movement of more than five million followers and four Sunday Times' bestselling books

Now, they're revealing what it really takes to make a neurodivergent relationship work. When we started our social media, I was the neurotypical husband, but it was so obvious that I was autistic. It was like I was masking, I was just forcing out whatever was in my mind, 'cause it felt like that was the thing that I had to do.

What was the biggest lie you believed about yourselves before your diagnosis? The biggest lie was that I was- I'm in the Late Bloomers podcast studio, all the way in the UK. My first question for you both is, what was the biggest lie you believed about yourselves before your diagnosis? For me, the biggest lie was that I was just [00:01:00] the worst person alive, big failure, useless, lazy, like, all the horrible words.

Um, it was so deeply entrenched in my s- like, personality, identity. Um, it wasn't even like a beli- it didn't feel like a belief. It was like, "That's who I am. I'm just a failure." Um, and when you walk around like that, it, uh, feels quite horrible. What about you? Oh. So I'd never thought about that question until you just asked it.

Um, but s- 'cause I only got diagnosed in November last year, so I'm six months in, and loads of my life has started to make sense. Um, mainly around socializing, actually. Like, I used to think that I was, like, socially awkward or just, um, uh... I guess that's true still, but at least I can explain- I was like, "I think I am socially awkward."

Yeah, no. So wait, just- I still definitely am, but there's no shame about it. Mm. Like, it, it, it was, it used to feel like, oh, why can't I just be like everyone else who [00:02:00] enjoys all of this? Or, I have to drink loads of alcohol to be okay to do this. But now I'm like, I don't like it and I'm okay, so I'll just stay at home.

Thanks. Mm-hmm. And so you were diagnosed with ADHD, you were diagnosed with autism. Yeah. And so that's a very different experience. Like you said right away, like, you know, feeling like, "I was the worst person," all kinds of shame, and you're like, "I was socially awkward." I'm curious, like, when you arrived at the diagnosis, what was that moment like for you, when it was like you have an answer for, for what's been happening your whole life?

For me, it was crying. I think you can remember the first time. Yeah. For me, actually, it started off seeing videos on social media. That's how I found out. Um, I was in therapy at the time, and it, it hadn't come up. I was just there working on what I thought was other stuff. And I saw this, um, young man, Connor DeWolf Yeah And he's just making TikToks.

It's came up on my feed and [00:03:00] I, I just burst out crying. I've, I watched about 20 in a row. I just burst out crying and thought, "Oh my God, the, I, I've never heard my inner world- explained by somebody else. You- Mm-hmm ... I felt so alone in my struggles and so ashamed. And, and seeing this young bloke doing it and kind of, and laughing, um, yeah, it, it rocked my world.

And then going on that journey, going on that diagnosis journey, was then like... I, I found it a bit difficult 'cause I knew it was me. I, I, I... Every single thing I recognized, but there's also a lot of imposter syndrome, the voice that says, "No, it, it is 'cause you're lazy. It's 'cause you're a failure. This isn't for you."

Mm-hmm. Kind of walking towards that, that it might not be my fault, and maybe there's a reason why I've always struggled so much with certain things. Um, and then over the years, I'm just so use, I'm just so [00:04:00] used to it now. Yeah. And I'm just so grateful. I, I really think that it, finding out probably saved my life.

Mm-hmm. And mine was a lot more emotional than I thought it would be. Um, but quite an interesting story. When we started our social media, I was the neurotypical husband. Oh. Like, we thought I was neurotypical even though my child is autistic, my dad likely is. It just never crossed my mind. But probably for two years before I got diagnosed, it was, the more and more, I suppose, you live in this world doing the jobs that we do, you're just, like, living in neurodivergent land, it like, it was so obvious that I was autistic.

So when it came to being diagnosed, I thought, honestly, I would think, "Well, I obviously am." Like, it would be no different the day after than it was the day before. But actually, it was quite emotional, like, to, to hear her say it back to me. I, I remember- Mm-hmm ... feeling a bit like frog in my throat, [00:05:00] like, a little bit tearful, just...

And, and only in that so much of my life, like, made sense. Even though I knew that I was, it like, hearing the words was a surreal experience. Was there anything, like, during your assessments that came up that you were like, "This is..." Like, it's like the, the key went into the lock, and it just opened up something and just really made it obvious, like, what, what was happening for you?

No, actually, the opposite happened during the diagnosis because, um, obviously, I was getting questioned. Lloyd's family was getting questioned about my childhood and stuff like that, and I had some trauma in childhood. So I was, um, abused when I was eight, and that obviously came up in the conversations.

And what they said was, "We need to go and look at this," and stuff like that because it, it, it could be trauma instead of- autism. And I'm like, that made me angry. It [00:06:00] was, uh, that made me all sorts. Turns out it wasn't, it was completely fine. I was well autistic. But- I remember- But at the time I was really angry about it

I remember it really, really knocked you because there'd been loads of conversations, um, and I think you were sort of feeling like it was moving towards, uh, yes, you are autistic, and then when Rich kind of disclosed what had happened to him, the conversation like completely changed, and it was like, oh, hold on, you've been through, um, child abuse.

Some of these symptoms could overlap. And it, it really upset you, didn't it? It was- It- ... almost like br- that that, could that be the reason? Is, that's not what I'm here for. It was quite like dysregulating. It struck me, obviously this isn't true, and there are a lot of professionals and experts that know way more than me, but it felt like in one sentence, it [00:07:00] felt like really invalidating.

Mm-hmm 'Cause it was like, oh, it was trauma. Obviously, you're, though you're not, you're, this isn't a thing. It was ju- but there was no like delving into the trauma. It was just like, surely they can't just cast this off with one sentence. Um, but, but no, it turned out, it turned out fine. Yeah. Well, and the thing that I find so curious within like psychiatric care is how quickly they'll just say trauma.

They just like drop that load on your doorstep and do nothing else with it, without ever understanding that a neurodivergent child is more likely to suffer trauma, all types of traumas, because one, you know, they are easily manipulated as children. There's also the, you know, I experienced my, my parents were very physically abusive.

I was born to a 16 and 17-year-old, so I think I should preface with that. But having an autistic child who questions everything, who doesn't understand things and then asks more questions, that was seen as [00:08:00] disrespectful, talking back. So there's certain traits that we have that lend themselves to like when, when people, you know, one, they can be nefarious, or two, they don't know what to do with it, the reactions can be really inappropriate, and I don't think we talk about that enough- Yeah

and I don't think medicine recognizes that as much as they should. I think they're too quick to just, you know, there's someone very prominent out there telling us all like, "Your whole problem is just trauma." Mm-hmm. And I'm like, I, I really wish it was that simple of like, let me just kumbaya, breathe my way through this unpack some things.

Oh, God. I mean, that- But like my brain is my brain. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, but that is, that's like so relevant 'cause actually my first, um- Like, you can't really be diagnosed with CPTSD here, but it was mentioned to me by a therapist and in the way that she could, she said, "This is what you're dealing with." So I was kind of diagnosed with trauma, and everything was, was put down to that and, um, a difficult relationship with my dad [00:09:00] and my mum dying, and I was working within that framework But with no understanding of, like, ADHD.

Mm-hmm. And, like, even in therapy I was masking, which is so crazy, right? Yeah. But I would be struggling to get there on time, or I'd get lost, or I'd lose my wallet, and I would never mention it in therapy 'cause I was so ashamed. And it's so crazy how it's al- sometimes a human being you can be, or I was, more comfortable speaking about my traumas than I was difficulty being on time.

Because at least with trauma people know it's bad, they know it's difficult, but losing things, being on ti- almost felt like, "This isn't a real problem. This is, this is ridiculous." Like, almost like it doesn't even deserve help. I think sometimes with ADHD, that's, like, some of the symptoms can feel a bit embarrassing- Mm-hmm

because you feel like a bit of a bad [00:10:00] adult. Like losing, like, like losing things, or struggling with directions, or, or memory, um, it's really easy to self-blame, and then not, not tell anyone. Well, and trauma happens to you, right? It was outside of your control, and so I think that's the other aspect of it. I think that's why a lot of people will gravitate sometimes towards the story of, "This is just trauma.

It's not..." A- as I describe it in my book, it's like this is your operating system, right, that you were, you were born with. And trauma is definitely one of those things outside of you that can influence the operating system. But the, I think that is what sometimes people gravitate towards, is that, like, "Well, trauma was done to me.

I couldn't help that. There was nothing to be done about that, but now I can heal from that, and it's not my fault." Mm-hmm. And I think that there's a guilt and a shame of, like, if we take ownership of, like, this is my operating system, then we have to admit that we need accommodations, we need help. Yes. I, for the first time, traveled with the, [00:11:00] uh, sunflower lanyard.

Like, and, uh, my husband who's in the room knows, I was crying in the airport because I was like, do you know how hard my life has been with travel? Like, the, the accommodations I have to pay for, like, all of the things I've had to go through just to travel. And like, yet here's this just, like, little thing I could have wore around my neck- Yeah

that, that could help me. And yet there were people when I shared it online who were grateful to know about it, but there were other people that were like, "Oh, you're just seeking attention." Oh, gosh. "You're just trying to get this or that." And I'm like, and I think it's sometimes hard for us because that's what we've heard our whole life.

Oof. And so when that story returns, you have to be like, "Okay, maybe that's true. Maybe that's what's happening." And, and I think that can be hard for people to unpick. It's so true. It's like it stops you from feeling like you deserve- Help Mm-hmm ... you have to suffer alone. It's just for attention. Mm-hmm. It just isolates people.

It's so, it's so horrible, actually. Did you find a difference wearing the lanyard? Like, what, what was the actual, did, what, did [00:12:00] people act differently? Did staff do s- diff- like, what happened? Yeah, so, uh, I will say we flew Ryanair yesterday- ... which I do not recommend, especially if you're neurodivergent. Um, but I will say when we got to the counter, the lady was like, "What can we help you with?

What else can we do for you?" Wow. Like, our bag was overweight. She didn't hassle us about it. Like, you see these videos online- Yeah ... of how people get hassled at the airport, and she was really kind about it. Instead of me having to go through the long security line where so- a lot of times people are just barking at you, they put me through a different security line.

People spoke very slow, very clearly. When I asked, like, clarifying questions, no one gave me attitude. People were like, "Oh, okay. This, this is what I mean. This is what I'm saying to you." Um, so it was a lot of that. They also, because it's an inivi- uh, invisible disability, they'll just ask you, "Do you need someone waiting when you get there to help you with your bags?

Like, what kinds of things do you need help with?" And so the other thing I'll say [00:13:00] is that on the actual flights themselves, like, they check i- they check in on me. Like, "How are you doing?" If I get up to go to the restroom, you know, um, this happens in the US where they're just like, "Someone's in that. Go sit down," they're like, "Why don't you stand over here?

Do you need anything while you're waiting?" Wow. Um, and it's really helpful because I also have a clotting disorder, so I'm like, I do have to stand. I have to move around. I have to also do injections before I do long flights, so it's just really nice to have all of that. I will say, um, the people around you don't know what the sunflower lanyard means.

No. Yeah. So that's a lot different. Yeah. So on Ryanair, that was just, like, um, chaos. Like, it was just like a Disneyland just opened and everyone just is, like, trying to mob to get to the ride first. I was like, "What is actually happening right now?" Oh, yeah. And I was so confused. Yeah. And I was like, okay, like, uh, but you know, when I got there, they were, the, you know, the, um, flight attendants were, like, really kind.

And so it is those kinds of things that are helpful because- I get, like, really bad [00:14:00] anxiety, but not about... People are always like, "Oh, you're afraid to fly." I'm like, "No, I'm afraid of people's behavior." Like, I get anxiety because people don't know how to line up. People don't know how to follow the rules.

Like, there are rules, and I have to follow the rules. Like, and so- That makes me giggle, 'cause that's- Yeah ... that's you. It- it's anxiety-inducing if others don't follow the clear rules. Yeah. That, that can make you- Right, it's anger more than anxious ... angry and, like, dysregulated- Yes ... if someone's not. It's, it's really interesting to- When people take the overhead bins, but they're s- all the way sitting in the back, I'm like, "You can't, you can't.

You guys." And one time I told on someone, and then I realized you're not supposed to tell on people on a flight. I was like, but I was like, "This other person can't put their bag there." Yeah. And then I'm, like, really dysregulated because somebody else is meeting conflict unnecessarily because someone didn't follow the rules.

But yeah, so I'm a, a rule follower. I- it's funny, because people will also be like, "You're such a rebel in medicine," and I'm like, "Well, there's so many things about medicine that are just plain wrong. They don't follow the, like, social rules of, like, [00:15:00] respecting another human, so that that is, like, different rule levels."

But, um, yeah, whenever, uh, people will be like, "Oh, I bet you're such a rebel," and I'm like, "No, I don't speed. I don't do, like, any..." I'm like, 'cause what are the rules? I love following rules. Mine's pretty much, I don't think mine's as simple as I follow rules or don't follow rules. I, mine is innately linked to sense of justice.

So, like, queuing- Yes ... if you go in front of me, you're putting me at a disadvantage. I'm pissed off at you. But I c- I, like, if I just see someone breaking rules that hasn't really, doesn't have an impact on anyone, I'll break rules myself. But it's, like, the, the sense of justice for me. Okay, that's, like, perfectly said.

That's how I should be explaining it to people, because that's exactly what it is. I don't like unnecessary rules that don't make sense, because then I'm, like, faced with, like, I'm supposed to follow the rule, but that rule's not right, and I don't, I don't appreciate that rule. And so, um, I think the sense of social justice is definitely what it comes down to.

I just, [00:16:00] like, have, um, like, you know, if we all work together, we move towards the goal that we're trying to get much quicker. So, like, this doesn't make sense to me, like, when people are, like, cutting off people in traffic, and then w- everybody has to slow down because of it, and I'm like, "They, we have a common goal."

Like, what are, what are you doing here? Yeah. Yeah, 100%. So let me ask you, how difficult was getting the diagnosis of ADHD for you? Because there... I know autism is, like, a gauntlet in itself, and, um, y- you know, and people writing, your family members writing letters, and me reading those and being like, "This is how you all saw me?"

I will say, my husband, when I was like, "I think I'm autistic," he's like, "Yeah, that tracks." And I was like, "What? What do you mean, yeah, that tracks?" I think the, the partners, the friends, uh, they always know perhaps before we do. Um, so yeah, here in the UK, it's actually a pretty dire situation- Mm-hmm ... at the moment.

with NHS waiting lists, and we hear ho- like horror stories of, [00:17:00] I think the longest we've had is like five or six years in one- Well, I think there's some places in the UK now that just won't accept any new- I mean, it's- ... people on the waiting list ... it is severely underserved. What that has meant is then a massive rise in like private diagnosis, but then there's this huge discrepancy with people that can afford to do that and people that can't.

At the time when I went through it was a few years ago now. We'd just moved into our first house. Yeah. And we had a very, very privileged situation, 'cause Rich was working, uh, he had the same job for 20 years, which, uh, makes sense knowing your brain now. Um, and he had like really good health insurance that also covered me and allowed you to do ADHD and autism diagnosis like through your health insurer.

So for me, it was a matter of thinking it was happening, speaking [00:18:00] to a therapist, cool, it was a matter of weeks. Mm-hmm. It's quite difficult to talk about because a lot of people that we speak to and that follow us, like, don't have that access, and I d- I don't know what the solution is here because it's- It's not necessarily just the access though.

Like, um, uh, obviously things are different in the US versus the UK, but one of the big things, even if people can afford a private diagnosis of ADHD, they're the- they then can't afford the medication if that's- Mm ... if that's the route they go down, 'cause you have to buy all of that privately rather than have it subsidized by the NHS.

So if you're diagnosed on the NHS, it's a lot cheaper to manage. And they've also recently stopped, um not sure the right word, but, but you used to be able to get a private diagnosis that would be recognized by the NHS. That's what I was gonna ask, yeah. So you could then have your treatment pathways on the NHS.

But they've stopped that. Mm-hmm. So people that have [00:19:00] gone private who were prescribed meds are now losing access to meds. I never did meds, um, because I have a sort of history of stimulant abuse- Mm-hmm ... when I was younger. Um, it actually makes so much sense to me now because I was, without knowing, I was self-medicating.

And when I was at uni, when I moved out of my family home at 18 and I went to university, that's when my life fell apart. Um, I think there was, even though it was, there was some difficult stuff at home, there was structure. And I moved out of home, and then I'm living alone for the first time, and I, I couldn't clean, cook, look after myself, c- go to lectures.

It was a, it was a horror show. So to get through the work, I had ordered online, I mean, Christ, and I, this pr- really illegal, [00:20:00] um, a sort of type of amphetamine, and it was for staying up all night- Mm-hmm ... so I could do my university work But obviously it was not prescribed. I abused that, and it didn't have a great ending.

And then throughout my 20s there was also, like, other, um, drug use. So for me, I've always been a little bit scared of, um, stimulants- Mm ... just 'cause of my history. So I didn't do that, so it didn't affect me, but it- so many of our community have. But with the diagnosis, like, i- itself, what struck me, and I, and I don't know whether people that have been late diagnosed would relate to this, but, like, I...

It was so much about childhood, and I'm like, "I don't know. I can't remember." "And neither will my family." So, like, I don't... They put quite a lot of that on how were you as a child. Mm-hmm. But when you're 40, that's, [00:21:00] that's 30 to 35 years ago, so I don't know how people at 60 are getting diagnosed, 'cause I'm not sure how would you, how would you ever remember that?

Yeah, and I mean, that's the thing you were saying, like, "Oh, I was quite fortunate 'cause I got diagnosed so quickly," and I'm like, in your 40s? Like, that is why- Gosh, that's so true ... I, you just quickly, once you, once you pursued it, and you know, the research shows that- Gosh, that is so true. Yeah. I mean, you were missed, and that's so many of us.

I mean, you know, the, the research, what I was gonna say, it shows that on average, a woman who's pursuing a diagnosis, she'll wait four years longer than a man before she'll be believed. So it's not lack of trying. It is that they go to doctor after doctor after doctor, who just says, "You're just anxious.

You're just depressed. You know, have you ever tried losing weight?" And you're like- Oh ... "What does that have to do..." But- Oh, my gosh ... it's things like that that are just very dismissive that women go through, and we know that the majority of women, so it's 50% to 75% of ADHD women, are [00:22:00] getting diagnosed as adults.

It's not actually happening in childhood, because by the time we get to puberty, which is when our estrogen rises, that's where all of the struggle becomes as internal as possible, because we're figuring out that if we wanna keep social connection, we can't be who we are. We can't be who we truly are. We have to be someone else to fit into that paradigm.

It's just actually really sad. It's, when you think about it, if I go back to teenage years, I can literally remember that exact, like, experience of having to fake humanity to kind of get on in the world. And it... But when you're, you're a young person, it's, it's incredibly disorientating- Mm-hmm ... and it makes you feel...

Like, I always grew up feeling, um, like a fake and a fraud, 'cause in a way I, I sort of was. I was faking certain ways of being. But it leads to that isolation of like I'm, yeah, I'm, I'm the worst person [00:23:00] alive It makes me think of your recent experience of, um, the struggles that you've been having with perimenopause as well.

Like you had to take that into your own hands in the end. Oh my good God. You went to see doctor after doctor after doctor pri- and they would just, just cast you off, wouldn't they? They were like, "There's nothing- Well- ... you're too young. Nothing's wrong with you." And that was like a 60-year-old man- Yeah

saying that to you. Yeah. But I, so in- 60-year-old man, he's never had to menstruate ... no, he's like- ... "You don't, you don't need HRT." And sh- you know what is so crazy? Besides what he said. When I was- Besides what he said. ... when I was reading your book, there are, there were certain markers about hormones, like testosterone, androgens, um, like insulin, um, iron, and I, I had my bloods done three times- Mm

different doctors, and there were signs on there. I had low iron. I had low testosterone, which is the, the free androgen. [00:24:00] But n- no one, they just told me I was fine. Mm-hmm. And it was over a period of like two years, where it's safe to say, I mean, I'll let you describe- What, or they gave you an iron supplement?

Yeah But they didn't explore why or anything. The, oh, just, "You'll be fine" or i- no one brought up, no one connected the dots. So I was sort of pre-diabetic. I'd lost my entire personality, crippling brain fog. I mean, I was like something is deeply wrong with me. Mm-hmm. Look, I love you and I'm accepting, but you went, you went crazy- Yeah

for a year. Like it was- No, let's be honest about it. Yeah. It was h- it was really bad- Yeah ... for, thing is it started a f- a few years ago. It starts with, um, like anxiety rising, and I just, I'm so shocked to learn that it affects insulin. Like that, that blew my mind. So you know when I was dealing with- Yeah, yeah

blood [00:25:00] sugar, when was that? Five years ago? Yeah. Four, five years ago, that's when it started and, and like I had no idea. Mm-hmm. So it's just got like worse and worse until last year. It was so bad. I mean, just the worst, like the worst mental health I've ever had in the happiest life I've, I've had, so it made no sense.

Mm-hmm. I remember the- I always used to say to you, I was like, "Someone has taken a cheese grater to my brain and just filed off my sharpness, my edge." It's like I'm just thinking underwater. Yeah. It's so hard to ex- like explain that to someone. Well, the, the, uh, you wouldn't believe it until you started HRT, right?

Like, you started doing that, and it, and it completely changed- Right ... your entire life. Within, within a few weeks, I've only been on, on it about six months. Mm-hmm. But within a few weeks I was like, "Oh, my... Like I'm, I'm coming back" And I'd, I... [00:26:00] It's almost like my body was starving for something, and I didn't even...

I didn't know. And yeah, no doctor mentioned it or, or saw it. It was like a last resort for me of going to see, and it was privately. I booked in privately to see like a sort of, um, perimenopause and menopause expert in the UK. It's all women doctors, and they, like they were unbelievable. Unbelievable. And like I think I was on HRT within two days of, of that sort of, um, consultation.

But it's made your ADHD symptoms better as well, like- Right. Why, why is that? Is that linked? I'm sorry, I know you're... It's because I'm like, because it has. Yeah. Like, it's- Well, well, for everyone listening, I am going to be on their podcast- Yes ... and I will explain all of this. We're going into it in like detail, but that's a real thing, that it does.

Well, what got better though, for people who are listening? So you start hormone therapy. Was it estrogen, [00:27:00] testosterone, and progesterone? No, just estrogen and progesterone. Mm-hmm. Brain fog. W- it, I- it's like I came back online, like my, my brain rebooted a version of me I thought I had like lost. A sort of, um, vitality for life that I had lost This constant obsessional rumination that I've kind of put down to, like, internalized ADHD.

I've, I've always been a living-in-my-head dreamer, a thinker, but it, it was, it was horrendous, but that's really calmed down. Um, I still lose things all the time, and get kind of lost mid-thought, so it hasn't done everything. What about from your point of view? It, not as much, though. Like, you- No ... it got to a, a, it, I mean, it's well-documented, right?

That it makes ADHD symptoms worse. So you're still ADHD. I don't think anyone would ever question that, babes. But, like, it got, it just got worse. The [00:28:00] symptoms- Yeah ... got worse than they were. Well, I, I'm curious, 'cause you're, like, a legitimate rock star. How, how was that time of no hormones versus going on hormones in terms of, like, your creativity?

So, uh, for pretty much all of last year, so I've been going through perimenopause for a few years, but last year was, I dropped off a cliff. Uh, I thought I was gonna have to quit music, and in fact, uh, we spoke about it many times. Mm-hmm. Uh, because I couldn't do it, and I, I lost my edge, my desire, my fight, uh, this thing that I've always had, this belief in the impossible and, um, this energy, it just went.

I was like, "I can't, I can't do this anymore." And actually, at the sort of peak of exhaustion and almost mental breakdown was, um, October, when we were on holiday, and I was going on tour, um, when we came home, for a couple of [00:29:00] weeks. And you were really worried. You didn't think I'd be able to do the tour, because I was crying all day.

I was burnt out. I couldn't think. It's absolutely insane what was happening. And I, and I went on tour, um, and it was a, it was, it was tough. It was really, really hard experience without the energy, without the drive. Travel, I couldn't sleep. Um, sleep was disrupted anyway, but sleeping on a tour bus was impossible.

So I was kind of losing my mind. Um, so I'd sort of made the decision, I'm gonna have to stop this career- Mm-hmm ... I have chased relentlessly for 20 years, that I've failed at, and failed at, and fa- failed at, and then finally, uh, made some traction. I'm gonna have to walk away from it because I can't do it anymore.

And then I've been six months now HRT, and just now, probably the last month or [00:30:00] so, I'm like, "Hmm. Ho- hold on. A- have, have I got something more to give? Am I capable of this?" And that's, that scares the hell out of me, that I was about to just- pull the plug on something that I've worked really, really hard for- Mm-hmm

because I couldn't do it anymore. So many women we see abandon their careers. Like, it's, what's interesting is that as we enter middle age, that's when, like, kids are grown, now you have the opportunity to, like, go all in on yourself, and yet then we see as the hormones change, women end up leaving their careers, stopping pursuing their dreams because they're like, "I just don't have it in me.

Like, I have to, I have to work on what's happening here." And I think, you know, when I think about that, I'm like, why wouldn't we see this as a public health crisis? Because women are leaving the workforce in droves because of how their brain is now operating, and then we're acting like HRT is this nice to have, and why would you even ask for it?

It's natural to go [00:31:00] through this. Oh, gosh. I didn't know that, um, other people other women left careers or dreams. That's, like, incredibly nice to hear because it really, it felt like it was j- I felt like I was just losing my life. Mm-hmm. Um, and yeah, the, the reaction of, of people, HRT is seen as this, I mean, especially in the UK, it's, like, really just not on the agenda of healthcare, and you have to push for it or you have to go private.

And y- you know, this doc- he was a top endocrinologist. Is that the right word? That's the right word. And he was just like, "Oh, no, like, you're far too young. You're 40. No, you d- they start women far too early on this stuff. You'll be fine." I was like, "Oh, okay, like, you're an expert." Like, I really, I really believed him because- Why wouldn't you?

Why wouldn't you? And actually, that was a, a- a year and a [00:32:00] half ago, and I, had he looked at my bloods and seen some of the markers, if you really knew about women's hormones, I might not have had to go through last year, which was probably- Yeah ... one of the worst years of, of my life, I'd say, mental hea- health, wasn't it?

But also, your testosterone was low, and that is something that we still see doctors say, "Well, women don't really need testosterone." I'm always like, "Well, why would the body make it?" Why would our body make it if you didn't need it? It's like, how many times in medicine have they said, like, "You don't really need that," because we don't understand it.

We didn't study it. I mean, the appendix is laughing at us right now, being like, "Yeah, I was always relevant, thank you. Like, I'm, I was meant to be here." But medicine's like, "We don't know. We don't understand, so you don't actually need it." And I'm like, "That's cute. We could just say we don't know. Like, we could just say I don't know that much," but oh, there's- So what is the...

'Cause I've, I've heard that many times. What is the testosterone part? What does that do [00:33:00] for us women? So testosterone is also involved in regulating the immune system. So with ADHD brains, we have a propensity, autistic brains as well, towards neuroinflammation, and so testosterone's really crucial in that regulation.

But, like, as I talk about in the book, you know, testosterone is our, like, wake up, kick ass, set boundaries. We feel strong When there's not enough testosterone, there's a vulnerability. And what's the adaptation that many of us fall into when there's that vulnerability? It's people pleasing. It's that if I'm not strong enough, then I must please people so that I can keep a tribe, right?

So if we're talking like ancestrally speaking, this would be how you kept people around you because you're not strong enough on your own, but you're strong enough in numbers. And so in modern society, that's us doing everything for everyone else, being a pushover, being like, "I know I said I wouldn't do it, but whatever, I'll just do it," because they don't have the mental energy to like put up the fight here.

A lot of low testosterone can also look like I have a hard time getting [00:34:00] started on projects. I'm not even motivated, but I absolutely cannot follow through. Like I just run out of steam. I cannot see this project through. And then you're like, "What's wrong with me?" It's 'cause it's not interesting. It's because of all these other things.

And it's like because your brain would like you to have testosterone On the flip side, if testosterone's too high though, we do become very impulsive. So this is why PMOS, formerly PCOS women, the research will say, like, they're more likely to have ADHD. I don't think that's true. I think it's they're more likely to present with that male archetype of ADHD because they have that impulsivity, and it's because they have those high androgens.

I make this joke all the time, and I ended up needing to go on testosterone therapy myself, which I almost got a puppy. My husband stopped me. Instead I bought two pairs of sequined pants that I need to, like, I didn't need them, but I need to, I need to actually wear those and incorporate them. But I always make a joke, when you start testosterone, hide your credit cards for two weeks, because even if it's the right [00:35:00] dose, the brain suddenly is like, "Oh, woo, testosterone!"

And then we're, like, so impulsive. And I have had patients who are just like, "Oh my God, you won't even believe, like, the stuff I bought." And then when I went on testosterone, and it was before the holidays, big mistake. And I just was in the mall, and I was like, "Let's look at puppies. We should get a puppy."

And my husband's like, "No. What are you even thinking right now?" I don't think you need

it at the moment, so- But I'm gonna be really open- It gets better though. U- usually within two weeks, then the brain's like- Right ... "Okay, okay, I got it. I know what we're doing." And then you're just like- Yeah ... everything feels really good. I wake up, I have energy in the morning. My brain works before coffee.

Like, what a novel thing, because without it you're like- Wait, sorry, did you say your brain works before coffee? Right? Did I... Wow, okay. Yeah. I didn't know that that world could exist. Yeah. I mean, I wasn't even clocking the low testosterone in myself. Mine was because I had a, I had emergency knee surgery, and I wasn't putting on muscle mass.

And my, uh, I was losing muscle, and I was, like, working out, eating my [00:36:00] protein, doing everything right. My orthopedic surgeon, he's like, "I can't discharge you, like, 'cause you're losing muscle." And I was like, "Wait, I should check my hormones." And then I checked my hormones. It was, like, abysmal testosterone.

'Cause I went through this major stressor, and I had to be faced with, like, okay, could you get your testosterone back maybe working on it naturally in a couple years? Maybe. But can you afford to lose all this muscle? Absolutely not. So, like, I'm just going to start testosterone therapy. And it was, like, in three months, like, I gained a centimeter circumference of muscle in my thighs.

Like, my doctor was like, "What did you do?" I'm like, "Testosterone." Yeah. He's like, "Oh, I offer that for men, but I never thought about it for women." I'm like, "My friend, like, let's have a conversation about this." That's great. Oh, wow, okay. Interesting. Yeah, but it was s- it was something where I was like, oh man.

Yeah, being on this, I'm not like being like, you know, to my husband, like, you know, "Can you just put coffee on my nightstand before my eyes open?" Like, can we just have that? I was like, yeah, I can actually get up and go and make my own coffee, and like, you know, remember where everything g- where everything is.

But- Wow ... yeah, it's, it's, um, such an [00:37:00] energetic hormone, and I just think we, we take it for granted, and then because it's always characterized as the male hormone, right? Yeah. Yeah. And estrogen's always the female hormone. But really, all bodies have these hormones, it's just about the right balance of them.

If I'm taking sort of estrogen and progesterone, can that affect testosterone? Because I almost feel like I feel so much better. Mm-hmm. Um, is there any wa- And we're sort of working out a lot more now, aren't we as well? Mm. Like, could it, could it naturally rise just from the other, like, do they interplay with each other at all?

So estrogen and progesterone won't make it rise, but, uh, working out w- can definitely- Okay ... increase your testosterone. Just the problem is that testosterone actually starts declining in our 20s. So it's one of the first hormones to decline, but it's not universal, 'cause some women are like, you know, they're, they, they go into menopause and they're like, "Without estrogen, I'm growing a beard."

Like, what is happening here? So it's not universal for everyone, like the way that progesterone declining first will be universal. But certainly, um, when [00:38:00] there's insulin resistance, optimizing your blood sugar, building more muscle mass helps support healthy testosterone levels. Amazing. So I wanna ask you guys, you know, you had previous relationships.

You have no- Many Okay, wait, let's go into that Many, many. Talk to me, 'cause, you know, I wanna get into how you found each other, but like what was life like before each other? Oh, gosh, very different. Very different. For me, I was kind of always in a relationship from, uh, teenage years up until my mid-30s when I, when I t- took a break, realized I needed to do something.

And it was always the same cycle, which is I would meet someone, it would be incredibly intense. It feel like falling in love and, uh, finding the one, and I'd be very impulsive. So it would often look like, uh, moving in together quickly, or moving country to be with someone, um- [00:39:00] And I'd get about a year, I'd get about a year, and then I would feel, um, like I couldn't feel those feelings anymore, like something had, had dropped or something had lost, and then I would go and recreate the same cycle again.

Um, and I just kept doing this. I kept l- leaving people. And, you know, when, when you're young and dumb, um, it was, "Oh, I'm just not in love anymore. Oh, now I'm in love with this person. I'm just..." There's always a way to blame out- outside people. It got to a point, I think after the 10th one, when I sort of looked back at the chaos I, I'd caused, and there's also a lot of kind of, um, drug issues in there as well, which don't help having a stable relationship.

But I looked back and was like, "Wow, I'm the, the common denominator in all of these. I, I can't be in a relationship." And I sort of put myself on the bench, uh, for a year and a half. I was like, [00:40:00] "No dating, uh, no physical intimate- no hand holding, nothing." And then lucky number 11 came along- And then, yeah. ... that age-old saying.

Yeah, and I was really not, I was really not looking. Um, a- and I didn't know about ADHD at this point, so my kind of internal narrative was quite shaming. It was like, "I'm horrible person. I'm not cut out for a re- I can't stay with someone, so I'm gonna just be alone." And I was actually c- working a sort of a program for, they c- they call it here SLAA, which is, um, Sex and Love Addicts Anonymous, and I was, like, fully, fully in that.

So, so I was not looking to meet somebody. Uh, and then, yeah, met you And then I did, and then I left my- Rich ... my program, and it was quite scary because, uh, obviously if you're working a program like that, the [00:41:00] recommendation is to be very wary if you feel that way again- Mm-hmm ... um, and to continue with the program.

But I, I met Rich, and I don't know. I didn't know whether I was following the same pattern or this was different, but I just, I had to go for it. So, um- But we're six years in now. Yeah, exact- Yeah ... I can look back and go, "Phew. Okay, good deci- good decision." It w- it wasn't the same. But yeah, from chaos to then complete abstinence to...

And, and in that time, I, I went to therapy and had some stuff to work on, and then met you. Well, we don't know whether history's not repeating itself or not, because I had two seven-year relationships before Rox. So we've got a year there. Oh, no. Oh, yeah. I got a year. I got a year, and we'll see. Um, so I, I was married twice.

I was married at 18, divorced by 25, and then with my s- second wife for seven years. Had a child with both of them. Um, uh, Rox previously said I had the same job since I was 16 to- [00:42:00] 36. So yeah, 20, 20 years. Worked in the bank, started as a cashier, worked my way up. Hated it. Hated every ... There's a few days that maybe were enjoyable, but out of that 20 years, most were, most were horrendous.

Um, but yeah, I wouldn't put my relationship history down, or history and, and divorces, I don't think I would put them down to Autism? I don't think. I think mine would, that would be about the trauma and being just completely emotionally shut off. Um, and that takes its toll on relationships and parenthood, to be honest.

Mm-hmm. Um, but yeah, so very different. And then I met Rox because she started staying in my best mate's... So she is the cousin of my best mate at the time, um, and she moved in, and we met each other on a Zoom quiz [00:43:00] during COVID lockdown, and that- Yeah ... the, that is- That's it ... how all budding relationships start- Yeah

I think at that time. On a Zoom quiz. What was it about the Zoom quiz, though, that made you be like, "Oh- So- "... oh, hello"? So yeah, that, that's literally what I was like. So I'd, I'd moved in, and it was the day one, I'd just moved in with my cousin, and I was moving from a, another friend's spare room into his spare room, 'cause I was still, I was very in debt, um, working out a lot of debt.

I didn't really have a real job. I didn't have much money, so I was living in spare rooms with mates, paying £300, and I was moving from one to the other. And I got there with my two little bags, all the, uh, possessions I had in the world, and they said, "Oh, we're doing a quiz tonight with my, my best mate and his family.

Do you wanna join?" And actually, like, I didn't. I just wanted to lie on my bed and decompress, but, um, I was fully kind of masked up and was like, "Well, I need them to think I am fun as a roommate, so I will do this quiz." [00:44:00] And I sat down and, and I saw the family, who are now my family. I saw Rich in the corner.

He's just there sort of with his tattoos, and he just looked cool. And I just remember thinking, "Oh, no. Oh, no. He doesn't look like he's gonna be very good for my abstinence." Mm. And he wasn't very good for my abstinence, but, but thank God. I'd done 18 months is enough, you know? And what was it for you? I was in my bachelor era, so I'd obviously come off of my second long-term, um, partnership, and I was having a great time.

So the last thing I wanted was another serious relationship, because I, I, you know, I'd, I'd been a dad since I was 18. So like, I, I didn't get that, like, uni experience, so I was living that in my early to mid-30s. And it's well, it's loads easier living it at that point, 'cause you've, like, got a bit of cash.

You've got, you've got your own place to stay. You don't have to [00:45:00] sneak around. Do you know what I mean? Like, I was like, "This is, this is brilliant." Um, but yeah, we met each other, and then, and then it just got really cringe really quickly. We were- Cringe ... we were speaking on the phone for, like, four or five hours a night.

Oh, my God. I was, "Oh, this isn't cool, is it?" But you can't really help it when it's happening. No- So- ... you can't help it. And then, yeah, there we go. And did it look like the same cycle as before, where you were, like, moving in quickly and- Yes, it did. So- I think I moved into yours after about three months- Yeah

which was really quick, and then we got our first, uh, little house together after six months. We were renting that. We didn't buy a house. No, no, renting. Um, so of course there was those worries of like, is this history repeating? But he felt like such a different type of character. I'd never ever dated someone that, that had a long-term job and that was a dad, it, that had been married.

It- he w- he [00:46:00] felt like a real adult. Um, so I was like, "Well, he's different. He's different. I think this feels like a good choice." And do, you know, as well as doing a lot of work in therapy, but I was really scared, wasn't I, like at the start- Yeah ... that it, it wouldn't work and- It ma- it makes me smile when you say that because I would say to this day, after six years, I've probably brought Rox more into adulthood, and she's taken me more into childhood-

like a bit more fun- We need each other ... and I do- That's, that's what it's for ... quirky things. Yeah. Aw, yeah. I love you. Well, and I also think about, like, your previous cycles. You're like, "Yeah, it was similar to that." I'm like, maybe those were the training wheels. You were just, like, going through of, like, okay, this is how it's- 10 training wheels.

Yeah. And then, yeah. Yeah, it just wasn't, you know, it wasn't my, it wasn't my time. You needed an 11-wheeler. I did. Yeah. I think the, the 11-wheeler is- You just didn't skin your knees bad enough, you

know- That, that's it ... the first few times. I had to keep, I had to keep going. I was a glu- a glutton for punishment. Yeah, I think there's something [00:47:00] about when you finally notice a pattern, and you just say, "Enough." Mm-hmm. What's g- what's going on here? Um, and yeah, I can see it through an ADHD lens of, of intense emotions to, to, to dropping novelty, but also s- family stuff.

I, um, my, my dad was a kind of serial cheater on my mom, and I almost feel like I, I almost picked up on that, and I almost lived- lived him in, in a way Yeah Almost became similar to him I think as well, it's, it's very relevant that we both started therapy really early on in our relationship, so- Oh, yeah ... so we were able to articulate and talk and have conversations if we were feeling certain ways and stuff.

We- neither of us really- That's true ... had that skill That's true. Like, you would only have arguments or leaving or the end of the relationship. And we, we were just learning that, "Shall we talk about it?" We, we're first learning to communicate, which sounds [00:48:00] crazy when you're in your sort of mid to late 30s, but we really were learning how to have a decent communication and, and resolve stuff.

Yeah, thank God for therapy. That probably was the, the difference for both of us, I think. Yeah. Yeah. And do you feel like you found, like, neuro affirming therapists who are able to really support you in this? So I'm in a, I'm with a different therapist now, uh, and I'm in psychodynamic or psychoanalysis, like the really classic.

And when I found him, he has on his page, uh, 'cause psychoanalysis is quite a... It's like the original therapy. There's a lot of listening. They're looking for your subconscious patterns to come out. Rox is entering a hyperfocus now, by the way- No, I'm not ... so focus on that I'm gonna- I'm just gonna say that I, I love it.

It, it's, it's, I've been there two and a half years. It's, it's been wild. It's [00:49:00] been life-changing. And he had on his, uh, therapy profile ADHD, so he is. However, and maybe this says something about me, my daily life is Or it's like all ADHD. I almost went there going, "What, what else? What else am I missing?" So it was almost like I wasn't neuro affirming.

I didn't wanna talk about it. I do a little bit now, but I almost wanted an eye to be cast on, uh, other areas, what else could be going on? And it's this, the psychoanalysis, it's like a slightly different framework. They kind of talk in personality types and structures as opposed to diagnosis, and I've, I've learnt some interesting ways about how I work in different styles, which has been able to kind of be [00:50:00] incorporated and be helped.

So I kind of learnt I had some masochistic tendencies. Essentially, you could say it's like deep people pleasing, like you g- push the extra mile, you always put yourself last. You never say if you don't like something. Um, and I was a little bit trapped down there, and it has really helped me break out from that and kind of find my, uh, voice and find my anger and a- anger and aggression.

But it's a, yeah, slightly different, slightly different type of therapy It's really interesting, that question for me, because it was... I had therapy way before I was even thinking about being autistic or suspecting. Um, so I'd never give it a thought. But looking back, I would say definitely not, 'cause the whole experience was really awkward.

It was like I was masking. I wanted, needed to say something, but... And I wasn't, I was never comfortable with not saying something, so I was just forcing out [00:51:00] whatever was in my mind, 'cause it felt like that was the thing that I had to do. But now, I think I would, I would seek, definitely a, a, a, a autistic-confirming therapist, because I'm really different to most people that I meet when it comes to interactions, so.

Mm-hmm. I didn't know that. It's the first time I've heard you say that. I'd, no, I'd never thought about it before until- Oh ... that question, so. I had, uh, someone that I met with recently, and her re- recommendation to me, so I was like, "I never have enough time. I feel like I'm always behind," and, you know, I'm talking to her about all these things, and her res- recommendation was like, "I think you need to meditate for an hour every day."

And I was like, "I thought you were neuroaffirming. Do you know what it's like for my mind to be still for an entire hour?" But also, like I just told you I don't ha- I feel like I don't have enough time, time, and you're like, 'Then take more time and do this thing.'" No. No, no, no. But I asked this question to other people, and almost universally, when I [00:52:00] talk to people that fall under the neurodivergent umbrella, they feel like they haven't found their person.

It's been very, very difficult to find someone who isn't, you know, in that... I mean, I love that you're enjoying that classical model, but this classical model of like this works for neurotypical people, so therefore, let's fit you into this. Let's fit you into this. And n- you know, it's, um, it's the other thing, too, where people will say, "Well, I found someone 'cause they were also neurodivergent, so they got me."

But then they were like, "I can't see you this often. I can't... I have to hold space as well because I have to, uh, regulate myself," and I'm like, it's such a- Mm ... tricky thing right now to navigate. I think there's still so many myths that are pervasive throughout medicine that makes it hard for us to get the care we need.

Mm. I mean, I think about- 20 years ago when I was in med school and, um, I remember them talking about autism and being like, "Autism only happens in little boys." I'm like, "Okay, check." And then they're like, "And they don't make [00:53:00] eye contact." And I was like, "Well, I never make eye contact. Like, that's not a thing."

And like, and as they went through all of this stuff, but they were like, "Oh, it couldn't happen. It can't happen in girls. It doesn't happen to girls." And so I was like, "Of course not." And then when I got the diagnosis, I was like, "This is the thing that's made the most sense in my, like, entire life." I cried as well.

But finding someone after that to, like, support you, and I feel like I always reach a level with a practitioner and then it's like, okay, we've come to the end of the journey, and it came a lot sooner than I would've hoped for how much work it took to find you. Yeah. It's so true. It's, I, I guess it's, there's a, like, gap in the market for people that really understand different brains and actually I can really, hearing you say that, I'm like, oh my God, to just go in and be expected to talk and communicate for 50 minutes with, with no clear boundaries or rules or goals.

Like, it must have, like, knowing you now- Well- It must have been horrendous ... [00:54:00] even when you arrived today, Rox was still getting ready, and you're lovely, but I was like, "Oh, no. What, I'm gonna have to speak- What do I say? ... to these lot. What am I gonna say?" You ca- he, he came up- I was like, Max arrived. I was like, "Thank God for that."

And it, he came upstairs, he went, "Dr. Brighten and her husband are here. Are you coming down?" It, it's just- So do you guys ever watch Bridgerton? Oh. Yeah. Oh my God. Obsessed. Francesca? Obsessed. She's like, "Can we just sit in silence?" Yeah. I'm like, "I would have married him immediately." Like, that's my man right there.

Oh, a legend. So you could have come in, you could have said nothing, did nothing, and we all could have existed in silence- Yeah ... and my husband would have definitely known, like, this is the jam. Like, this is how we're gonna roll right now. Yeah. Because he knows there's times where he's like, "Oh, what's..." He's very loving and affectionate, and he wants to touch me and ask me what's wrong, and I'm like, "Don't look at me, don't talk to me, don't touch me."

"Don't breathe near me." Like- Yeah. Please, I just need- Yeah ... like, my space because- Yeah ... my nervous system is like, "I can't. What is happening? It doesn't [00:55:00] compute right now." Yeah. The thing is, oh, of, of course, you're right. Yeah. And, and I should have maybe known that doing... you know, knowing the, the job that you do.

But society has told me for 40 years that that's- Mm-hmm ... not an acceptable thing to do. So whoever- Yeah ... you, like, you can't do. It takes a bit of vulnerability to just say, "Hi, you're in my house now. I'm not gonna speak to you. Can you sit there?" Yeah. "We'll come and chat when we're ready to go." Yeah. Like, do you know what I mean?

And I love direct communication. Like, we were just in, um, Finland, and people from the US will always be like, "Finnish people are so cold and mean," or, "The Parisians are mean," and I'm like, "They're very direct-" Yeah ... "and I live for it." Like, they just, like, say the thing, and I'm like, "I'm same page. Okay." Like, I would love that b- better than, like, when you're using, like, euphemisms and, and saying all these th- and I'm like, "What is between the lines?"

Yeah. Because I can't, I can't see that. Yeah, same. It's g- that's so in... I love we've had that convo 'cause that's, like, so real. That you worried- Sometimes I joke that I'm like, "I just wanna wear a shirt that says, 'I'm autistic. You [00:56:00] don't have to talk to me. You don't have to look at me.'" Like, "Just let me be." Aw.

I would love that. Like, I could just- Oh ... float through the world- Please ... and it'd be fine. Please, please, please. You would love that, wouldn't you? I would prefer it. People think that, like I felt that I needed to welcome and talk to you, people think that about me, and I'm like, "No, I, I prefer if you just ignore me completely."

I'll sit in the corner with the dog. Well, we went, we went to a party, um- Oh Recently, it was towards the end of last year, and I was, I had a really nice time, but the room was full. We were in, like, a, a bar. It was y- your, one of your producer's- Sean's birthday ... birthday. Yeah. And I was just sat in a corner on my own, drinking my little Diet Coke, and Rox was really worried.

She was like, "You okay?" I was like, "Yeah, I'm having a great time." Not speaking to anyone. Like, everyone else was stood up, so it was a room full of 50 people stood up, about this size room, and him just sat in a corner, so just drinking. Just people wa- 'cause I do love people-watching. I love watching them. Oh, yes.

I just [00:57:00] don't like- ... interacting with them. Yes. We actually, uh, so we're, like, vacationing right now. Well, I'm actually working, and I'm calling it vacationing because I'm eating the most delicious food. Yes. But, like, I do love to find a spot, and I'll be like, "Oh, let's sit here." My husband will be like, "This isn't very nice."

I'm like, "But look at all the people." I know. Like, look at all the people we get to watch and- It's to watch and not talk to ... yeah. And see, and see the dynamic. It's funny 'cause we were recently at a party, and I thought my husband was having a very good time, so I was, like, sucking it up, making it happen. Um, and then, uh, he was like, "How are you doing?"

And I was like, "I absolutely, like, hate this, and I really wanna leave." And he's like, "I'm not, I'm only here for you." And I was like, "Oh my God, we need to communicate better." Oh, he had, like, turned on- Yeah ... the ADHD charm, which you can do- Yeah ... but for someone that you, you love. That's so funny. I love it. But yeah, it's just, it, it's the joy of unmasking, but it als- it takes a long time, 'cause for your whole life- You've had to be that.

You've had to turn that on, so it's [00:58:00] gonna take time to unlearn Well, you ... I, I, I don't think there's enough time in the world. Like, I can do it with you and the people that I'm close to. I don't think I can do it with strangers. It still wouldn't, to this day, feel like a safe thing to do. Yeah. So whenever people say, like, "Oh, these are your superpowers," like, I like to use analogies.

Like, yes, and Superman has his kryptonite, right? So, like, you have to recognize what your kryptonite and kryptonite is. But, um, I made a joke this morning about an interaction I just had, and I was like, "Yes, my superpower is sticking my foot in my mouth," because I met someone, and my brain, I just ... I had not had enough sleep.

I had ... Just nothing was right for my brain to operate right, and my brain said, "She's so much smaller in real life." And my mouth was like, "You're so much smaller in real life." And my husband's like, "In general, you should not comment on people, how people look." And I'm like, I know this, okay? As a woman- Yeah ... I know this.

I know this rule in society, and at the same time, if I don't have the energy to mask, my brain says something, my mouth [00:59:00] says something, and then it's just lost to the ether. And now I have to ... I'm still figuring out, like, three days later how I'm gonna apologize to this person - Oh ... and just explain that, like, I'm really sorry.

Yeah. That's okay. I'm neurodivergent, and my mouth filter falls off a cliff sometimes. And then I say the first thing I think. But I really did think I was gonna meet this person and she was gonna be so much bigger than me, and I didn't recognize her. And yeah, but so anyhow, there's also that aspect of things.

I feel like, you know, in the work I do, in speaking on stages, like, I do have to be high masking which, you know, I would say to friends, like, I would speak at a conference and, you know, they'd be like, "Oh, let's go out later." And after a day of speaking at a conference, answering everyone's questions, greeting everybody, I'm like, "Oh, I have to go to my hotel room and, like, bury myself in blankets for six hours and, like, not talk to anybody."

And they would look at me like that was so weird. And I was like, "Y'all don't do that? Don't you have to, like, recover your energy?" And they're like, "You're such an extrovert. Maybe you're an introverted extrovert." Spoiler, I'm autistic. No. I want, I want to say that's so funny. Well, do you do ... [01:00:00] 'Cause, like, Rox is the same I'm the same, but I would before, at the start of the day, if people were like, "Do you wanna go out after this?"

I would be like, "No, I'll be exhausted." Yeah. Definitely not. Rox would be like, "Yeah, let's go, let's go, let's go." And it won't be until she's there that she's like, "Oh, no, I can't go. What have I done? I've made this commit- Yeah. It sounds like a classic- I'm very good at over-committing- Over-committing

especially if I'm in my luteal phase, uh, or in my follicular phase. Um, and then, and then I end up in my luteal phase, I'll be like, "Yes, I'm totally in. Let's do that. Let's plan the whole thing." And then I arrive at my luteal phase and I'm like, "I can't show up to anything. I can't do anything right now." No, you should never make plans when you're feeling good.

But yeah. They will come back to bite you on the bum. But it's also like, I also feel this pressure too, 'cause like, especially when I travel and I speak at conferences, like people come from all over the world just to see me. I don't know if you know Dr. Samantha Hugh. She's here in the UK. She's AuDHD. We were actually texting on my way here.

Um, and I was saying like, you know, like I just spent like three days with people touching me, and she's like, "Ew, they touched you?" And I was like, [01:01:00] "Well, like when someone comes from Russia, like to hug you- Yeah ... and you've changed their life, like they can't reach me in the US." Like you, there's a whole thing that like- Oh, that's so true Yeah.

And so I'm like- They want your time to, touch your energy, but that takes something huge from you. It takes a lot. It does. Yeah. And at the same time I'm also like, the only reason I'm able to do this work and be able to change people's lives are because of moments like this. Yeah. And so it's like being grateful.

But then I think what I've learned, I was just burning myself out in my 30s, and it was like finally in my 40s that I'm like, it's okay to just say, "Everybody leave me alone," and go into a room and have it be completely quiet or just read your book for hours and- Oh, yeah ... you know, you, you just- Oh, yeah ... do what you, what you need to do to recover.

Yeah. And people that love you want you to do that. It's just learning that language. It, it really makes me think of, um, when we, we first started making videos on the internet, um, we would s- in the UK, like we'd [01:02:00] sometimes get stopped and people would come and say hi, and this was when we believed that I had ADHD and he was neurotypical.

Yeah. So people would come up to say hi, and my natural disposition would be to say hi back and hug and be quite like in that energy with them, and Rich would always sort of be quite quiet, not wanting to engage, and I feel terrible, terribly about this now. I used to kind of tell him off and I'd be like, "Can you talk?

Can you like carry some of this with me? Just smi- like smile." So I was like telling him basically to mask, to fake. Yeah. But I, I didn't know. And we went through that for a couple of years, didn't we? And then when we started speaking about autism, I was like, oh my God, like we're in this like neuro affirming couple and I'm having all this support and accommodations, and then I have missed the wood for the bloody trees, and I'm, I'm trying to force him- To not be autistic and it was a real, like, eye-opener so we, [01:03:00] we do that differently now, don't we?

Yeah. Big time. He, he's just allowed to- Ignore them ... be silent. Ignore or say hi, do a wave. I'll say hello, say thanks and then continue my walk Yeah. It's funny that you say that. We're like, I feel like we're so, um, opposite in the sense that it was my husband that we were like, I'm like, "You're fully ADHD."

Like, you're ADHD, and like, I'm normal because I write books, and I'm a doctor, and I speak on stages- ... and all this stuff. And then when our son, we were meeting... So we had a parent coach so that we knew how to raise a neurodivergent child, 'cause no one gives you that manual. And when I was, like, arguing with her, which wasn't to say that she was wrong, but it was just like, no, of course these things are normal.

Like, of course people gag when wet hair touches their back or, like, have a complete meltdown and can't leave the house 'cause the seam of their socks. And she's like, "This is not normal." No. And I'm like, what? And then, and like I, I shared with you before, ADHD was like, okay, yeah, I can kinda see that, but that, like, [01:04:00] doesn't really feel like, you know, totally like it fits.

Uh, and then it was when the autism diagnosis, I remember crying in one of the, uh, part of the assessment because I, you know, I can't even remember what the question was, but my answer was is that I feel like I've been playing the game of life, but I'm the only one who didn't get the rules, and everyone got the rules, so they constantly win, and I'm constantly just trying to- Mm

figure out what are the rules to this game so that I can actually make it work. And it was that moment I started crying. And then I remember when I got the diagnosis and I was like, everything I thought was wrong with me, broken about me, just so frustratingly dysfunctional about me was actually this operating system.

And, like, this is an opportunity for me to look at, like, is it... You know, in the, my book I say, it's like everyone else got, like, the iOS, right? Like, Apple is compatible with everything, and it's super, like, easy to use. I said this to a friend, and she was like, [01:05:00] "Yeah, and the Android turns the chat green. Like, you know that person's different."

And I was like, oh. Oh, my God, yes. But I'm like, but, like, Android users love their Android, and it's not inferior. Yeah. It's just different. Different. I love that. And you have to just learn how to work with it. And so when I really started to flip that script for myself, I was like, okay, like, this is just a different way of being.

And your whole life you thought, like, you're so dumb, you're so broken, like, you just don't fit in, like, people don't like you, like, that you're just not a likable person, which is even kinda crazy when I think about, like, I just said to you, like, people were traveling all over the world to see me, but my internal narrative was like, you're just not likable.

Like, that's just, you're just too weird. Like, you're awkward. And then it's like, oh, no, you're different. Like, and you're trying to text this different operating system. Yeah. That, I love that analogy. I really, yeah. We turn the bubble green, and you just know. Yeah, gorgeous. So I wanna ask about your relationship dynamic because I shared with you that, like, my husband's like, "I wanna tou-" Like, [01:06:00] that's his, like, his way to comfort me-

is like he wants to touch me. Oh, yeah. And, like, I- My darling ... I'm just curious, like, how do you navigate that? So that's me too. I'm like physical touch- super affectionate, cuddling, 'cause it's how I show love, how I receive love And what about you, babe? Well, look, it doesn't help that Rock's is the temperature of the sun, so- Oh my God, the number of times my husband put his hand on me yesterday on the plane, and I was like, "Stop, I'm dying."

Like, why? Why are you burning me alive? So, so a- and, and what I would say is if it wasn't physically uncomfortable, I would be willing to have a touch and hug and cuddle in bed and all of that. Like, all... It is, it is just because it's horrendous. Like, when we're in bed, her head will occasionally, like, be on my chest, and I'm like, "Love you.

You've got about five minutes there." "And then that's it." Like, I, we can't... I [01:07:00] can't do this. Yeah. I, I know that now. Uh, or I come and I do a little pat or a little kiss. I, I get a bit. I- in the first few years, um, I'm quite a sensitive soul, and I'd, I'd feel a bit rejected, um, you know, whatever, all your childhood stuff.

Can't be rejected again, and I'd feel quite sad. And then you go through the mill, you learn all this, and I'm like, "All right. Cool. Autism. You're too hot. You don't like... Cool. Not a problem." Like, it c- it gives you a much better narrative than someone doesn't like you, they're not listening, y- you're rejecting.

One thing, though, that that I don't think that you were quite emotionally prepared for- Go on ... is I'm pretty sure our dog is autistic, because he doesn't let her... He, she just wants to cuddle him, and he's the same. Like, 'cause he'll come and lay on me, but I'll just be scratching him. She wants a full-on cuddle, and he, and he's like squirms to get away.

I know. He's t- he's just like you. Number two, we got the dog for my 40th birthday as, like, a sort of, you know, [01:08:00] everyone says dogs, they unconditionally love you. And I'd be like, "Cool. Better than my dad." And, like, it was to fill that, you know, that, that hole. It's like I just, I wish a parent was, was... could love me.

I was like, "We'll get a dog. That'll do it." And then the dog has chosen to bond with Rich. So yeah, I never get my, um, I never get my cuddles, do I? No, not from anyone. You've, you've got better with Rocket, though. I'm like, "No, babe, don't smother him. Just scratch him-" Yes ... and he'll be all over you. Show restraint.

Yeah, I've got a bit better, yeah. We've got, uh, two dogs. We just got a second dog, which is a, a Caramelo in... that Mexico just recognized as an official breed. It's just a street dog, which I'm like, I feel like she's, like, my soulmate. Like, she's, like, this street dog that's, like, you know, had this hard life, and she was misunderstood.

And, like, now I'm like, "I'm gonna give her the best ri- life." Aw. But we have this chihuahua who's trained as a service animal, and that dog is so needy. So he's so great for my child, who is experiencing anxiety. He had, his anxiety was manifesting as terrible stomachaches. We get the [01:09:00] dog, stomachaches gone.

Wow. Fantastic, but that dog is so needy. Like, if I'm ever sitting, he has to be in my lap. If I'm, if I'm just like... And I just feel like he knows something's wrong with me. Yes, they do. And so he's like, "I have to be..." And then, and the, I will say genuinely, like, I've had surgeries, and he's like, "I need to stay near you.

I need to be with you." Great. Like, this is what you're trained for Aw. But I also feel like, I'm like, "You should have my dog," because- I was gonna say, you would love that. Yeah. You would love that. Maybe I... Do I need a service dog? Um, no- Trained ... we do not need any other dogs. Yeah, I'm like, I'm like- Wait till I get on testosterone.

No. Deerhead Chihuahua might, might work for you. Oh. That's what he is. But yeah, I'm just like- So sweet ... you're supposed to be a service dog, but I feel like you need so much from me. Like, you're such a needy little dog. Yeah, I would, I would love that. Doggies are the best. Well, let me ask you two, is there any advice you would share with couples, with people who are neurodivergent, struggling maybe to find their person, or finally finding their person and trying to figure out how to do that dance together?

Yeah, I, I think [01:10:00] one of the, like, saddest things that we've had for years now, since we kinda started making our little comedy vids on the internet about our dynamic, is people that come up and say, "Oh, gosh, I've lost the love of my life," 'cause they were like you, with high ADHD and I didn't know. And people that got divorced because so many of these little things that can up- the fact that I can't cuddle you- C- could've sent me on a spiral, I'm not being loved.

I could have projected something onto that, me being a messy bugger. That could have ... Like, th- those two small things, me not being cuddled and my clothes being on the floor, if we didn't have the language of neurodivergence, I could fully see how that could scale to separation. Mm-hmm. 'Cause it just builds up, and it builds up resentment without- I've, I've got a really succinct way of answering this.

Go on. You take it. So for both of us, so m- my inability [01:11:00] or my struggle if a plan changes, for example, and the fact that Rox is one of the untidiest messy humans I've ever met in my life, both of those things could cause emotional distress. But the way I like to do it, whether this is right or wrong, is separate the person from the neurodivergent.

So it's like me and Rox versus the ADHD- Mm ... or me and Rox versus the autism. It causes problems. It causes distress. It causes frustration, but it's not labeling that person- Yeah ... is not the frustration. It's this symptom, this thing that they can't help causes us both frustrations. Yeah, I love it. Us, us versus the ADHD is great, and also, the thing that I've experienced with you that is, like, the cornerstone of our relationship is, like, benefit of the doubt every time, never putting a negative in- intention.

If you forgot something, you forgot something. Or if you are overwhelmed and [01:12:00] you can't talk to me, you're not reject... Like, benefit of the doubt. Whatever you are going through is allowed and encouraged. And, like, get, get interested, being curious. Like, if you shut down suddenly, it's like, "What's going on? Did something happen?

You overwhelmed? Do we need to move?" Rather than make a story about yourself, just, like, get so obsessed and interested what's going on for them. You do that so well with me. Like, how come, like, you are getting ready five minutes before we need to leave the house? What's going on? And you have this time blindness convo or, and then we can build a plan.

So, like, curiosity always, judgment never. And you're just in a really fun, fun zone to get to know each other and learn about a totally different human being to you, and how you're gonna rock and roll together. Well, that's beautiful. I appreciate this conversation so much. Thank you both for inviting [01:13:00] me into your home so we can hang out in your...

 

I love this podcasting studio. Uh, but I really appreciate it, you having us in your home, um, and, you know, you tolerating us and the conversation. Pleasure. But thank you. Now she's here, it's absolutely fine. Wow. Yeah, thank you so much. It's been a pleasure to chat to you.